East Croydon bottleneck: Gatwick Growth Board proposals

[MarkRedon]

The Gatwick Media Centre is promoting a report by an organisation called the Gatwick Growth Board. See http://www.mediacentre.gatwickairpo...017/17_07_10_unblock_croydon_bottlenecks.aspx and earlier http://www.mediacentre.gatwickairport.com/press-releases/2017/gatwick_growth_board.aspx

• Plans urgently need progressing for new platforms at East Croydon and flyover bridges at Windmill Bridge Junction to increase Brighton Main Line capacity
• “Poor connectivity and transport links are a barrier to sustainable growth across the region, including new housing and the creation of 13,000 new jobs” Steve Norris, former Transport minister
• Plans for Smart Motorway to provide permanent extra lane on sections of the M23 also vital for growth – including new housing and employment growth along the London / south coast corridor

Unblocking bottlenecks at East Croydon station – and the complex junction north of the station - could release up to eight new trains an hour on the Brighton Main Line (BML) and help to secure 13,000 new jobs by 2025, according to a report published today by two former ministers.

The report – commissioned by the Gatwick Growth Board - recommends that East Croydon station is redesigned to create two new platforms – and that flyovers are used to untangle Windmill Bridge Junction where routes to London Bridge and London Victoria divide. Without these changes, both bottlenecks will prevent the full capacity on the BML being realised and will continue to affect the performance of existing services.

The report also highlights the urgency of securing this project as the land required could be lost to the significant developments planned as part of the major regeneration of Croydon.

Jointly chaired by former Transport Secretary, Steve Norris, and the minister who delivered the London Olympics, Baroness Tessa Jowell, the Gatwick Growth Board has an objective of ensuring that areas across the region capture the regeneration benefit from the growth of Gatwick Airport.

Today’s report, produced by Arup, examines the transport connectivity required to realise this economic regeneration and deliver the 13,000 jobs that would be generated across the region and the rest of the UK from the growth of a single runway Gatwick to 2025.

Creating eight new BML1 paths per hour does sound exciting. Is this proposal realistic?

Please accept my apologies for starting a new thread on this subject. I do not think it falls under any existing threads, but that's debatable.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's all covered in the Sussex Route study. Windmill Bridge Junctions and all associated improvements at East Croydon is described at length, as are the outputs.
I didn't recall 8 additional paths being mentioned, but then that could possibly be right across Victoria and London Bridge including fast and slows.

AFAICS this is just a third party report pushing for something that NR have already stated want to do in CP6. The more the merrier I suppose...

There have been a couple of attempts to get threads going about the Windmill Bridge improvements, but for some reason they didn't really generate much interest at the time.

Here's one: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=139279&highlight=windmill

The cross references to the "London Reconnections" article are probably the most useful content I think...

 

[gordonthemoron]

it might be an idea for Gat Express to stop directing all Victoria bound passengers onto their own services at Gatwick which results in packed trains whilst other Southern services are less busy, and also using 8 coach trains instead of 4 coach

 

[Muzer]

it might be an idea for Gat Express to stop directing all Victoria bound passengers onto their own services at Gatwick which results in packed trains whilst other Southern services are less busy, and also using 8 coach trains instead of 4 coach

Packed trains? And I thought the standard on this forum was to moan about how they're wasting paths carrying around fresh air, or have I missed a change in the party line?

 

[Surreytraveller]

it might be an idea for Gat Express to stop directing all Victoria bound passengers onto their own services at Gatwick which results in packed trains whilst other Southern services are less busy, and also using 8 coach trains instead of 4 coach

That's a ridiculous idea. Passengers for Victoria should be directed to the express, for which a premium fare should not be charged. The other Southern services become packed en route to Victoria at intermediate stations, with passengers struggling to get past airport passengers' luggage.

 

[JB_B]

it might be an idea for Gat Express to stop directing all Victoria bound passengers onto their own services at Gatwick which results in packed trains whilst other Southern services are less busy, and also using 8 coach trains instead of 4 coach

Interesting - IME it's the other way round.

I was surprised to see quite a few 4-car Gatex recently - but not surprised that they still had plenty of room.

 

[MarkRedon]

It's all covered in the Sussex Route study. Windmill Bridge Junctions and all associated improvements at East Croydon is described at length, as are the outputs.
I didn't recall 8 additional paths being mentioned, but then that could possibly be right across Victoria and London Bridge including fast and slows.

AFAICS this is just a third party report pushing for something that NR have already stated want to do in CP6. The more the merrier I suppose...

There have been a couple of attempts to get threads going about the Windmill Bridge improvements, but for some reason they didn't really generate much interest at the time.

Here's one: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=139279&highlight=windmill


The cross references to the "London Reconnections" article are probably the most useful content I think...

I did wonder to what extent these were new proposals and the London Reconnections article clarifies what's possible rather nicely - if and when the full proposals in the revised Sussex Route Study get implemented. To save effort, here's the link again: https://www.londonreconnections.com/2015/east-croydon-revisited/

...we saw how absolutely critical the junctions north of East Croydon would be in future when considering reliability and capacity. A once in a generation opportunity tied with essential resignalling presented itself and Network Rail was keen to substantially enhance and improve the layout. The proposals were a great improvement but, as was pointed out, the new layout did very little for trains from the slow (eastern side) of East Croydon transferring to the fast line to Victoria and vice versa.

The revised plans are a significant improvement on the ones in the draft study. They are also more complicated.

And they are certain to be eye-wateringly expensive, therefore unlikely to appear in CP6 plans. In CP6, Network Rail must deliver on the "we've started, so we just have to finish" schemes - so as to regain the confidence of government. But beyond that, only very bold initiatives can deliver significant new capacity on the Brighton route.

 

[hwl]

I did wonder to what extent these were new proposals and the London Reconnections article clarifies what's possible rather nicely - if and when the full proposals in the revised Sussex Route Study get implemented. To save effort, here's the link again: https://www.londonreconnections.com/2015/east-croydon-revisited/

And they are certain to be eye-wateringly expensive, therefore unlikely to appear in CP6 plans. In CP6, Network Rail must deliver on the "we've started, so we just have to finish" schemes - so as to regain the confidence of government. But beyond that, only very bold initiatives can deliver significant new capacity on the Brighton route.

Not that expensive at £700-800m. The proposals probably have more traction than any other big new CP6 proposals and are far better costed. Possibly also the first example of the new big project funding when properly developed in detail model.
Also worth noting they appear in the Gibb report and other DfT sanctioned material.

And also other relevant LR Sussex articles:

Part 8
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2015/a-study-in-sussex-part-8-if-you-bridge-it-they-will-come/

Part 7:
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2014/study-sussex-part-7-east-croydon/

Part 13:
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2016/study-sussex-part-13-norwood-junction/

 

[hwl]

It's all covered in the Sussex Route study. Windmill Bridge Junctions and all associated improvements at East Croydon is described at length, as are the outputs.
I didn't recall 8 additional paths being mentioned, but then that could possibly be right across Victoria and London Bridge including fast and slows.

AFAICS this is just a third party report pushing for something that NR have already stated want to do in CP6. The more the merrier I suppose...

There have been a couple of attempts to get threads going about the Windmill Bridge improvements, but for some reason they didn't really generate much interest at the time.

Here's one: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=139279&highlight=windmill

The cross references to the "London Reconnections" article are probably the most useful content I think...

A good bit of external positive presssure on DfT and Treasury never hurt. Probably some very easy money for Arup.

As a side issue I'm not that sure that smart motorwaying the M23 is that good value, simple things such as slip road capacity and junction improvements would be quick and cheap wins.

 

[LLivery]

it might be an idea for Gat Express to stop directing all Victoria bound passengers onto their own services at Gatwick which results in packed trains whilst other Southern services are less busy, and also using 8 coach trains instead of 4 coach

As someone who has used the BML almost every weekday for months I can't say thats what I see the problem as.

Firstly, most GatEx are 8-12 car. Problem is people only really seem to properly use 4 cars of that - the rest are almost empty. At the right time of the afternoon, you can see a whole 4 cars with absolutely no passengers. Another problem is at Gatwick. People just pack onto the middle 4 cars; this is probably not helped by the narrow platforms around the footbridge. Often at Gatwick you will see people crammed, standing in the middle, whilst the front and rear 4 cars are empty.

I normally use the train from Bognor & Portsmouth via Horsham towards London Victoria, and quite a substantial number of passengers get on at Gatwick. With the normal timetable, many people are standing and blocking the doors with luggage. Then, lots of passengers have to move the luggage at East Croydon - its a pain. Not to mention it feels almost impossible to get a train on at ECR bang on-time before 11am and in the evening peaks.

For a quick soultion for some of the problems, it's about time the Gatwick Express either stopped being a premium fare or stopped being a premium fare and additionally called at ECR and CPJ. On a network where capacity is scarce I would prefer the latter.