East-West Rail (EWR): is the proposed service pattern a missed opportunity?

[Nodding Cat Ch]

Moderator note: Split from

East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

Hi guys, It was recently reported that the East-West Rail link between Oxford and MK has been delayed by 2 years from 2017 until 2019. Does anyone have any idea why?

www.railforums.co.uk

Is there no plan for a Cambridge (CBG) to Milton Keynes (MKC) train?

Seems like a missed opportunity there

 

[tspaul26]

Is there no plan for a CB to MK train?
Seems like a missed opportunity there

There is no plan to provide credit cards to Macedonia.

 

[jfowkes]

Is there no plan for a CB to MK train?
Seems like a missed opportunity there

It's been discussed at length on various threads. The problem with any trains from the east getting to MK is having to reverse at Bletchley and also platform availablity at MK I think.

 

[Magdalia]

Is there no plan for a CB to MK train?
Seems like a missed opportunity there

No, because the trains would either need to reverse at Bletchley or have a new north curve built specially for them. There will be a reasonably decent service changing at Bletchley.

You are new here so won't have had the benefit of following this discussion in the past. It will be a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack but, if you have time to look, you will find discussion of this somewhere in the 6000+ messages!

 

[zwk500]

Is there no plan for a CB to MK train?
Seems like a missed opportunity there

It's not going to be a major market. The X5 bus serves/served this corridor and the number of through passengers was very low.
Reversing in Platform 5 remains an option for Bedford or Cambridge to MK trains. I think an avoiding curve may happen but not for at least 20 years.

 

[jfowkes]

It's not going to be a major market. The X5 bus serves/served this corridor and the number of through passengers was very low.

I'd probably agree that it's not going to be a major market, but I wouldn't use the X5 as a reason.

A fast(ish), smooth comfortable train might draw more custom than the comparatively slow, cramped, travel-sickness inducing bus.

 

[zwk500]

I'd probably agree that it's not going to be a major market, but I wouldn't use the X5 as a reason.

A fast(ish), smooth comfortable train might draw more custom than the comparatively slow, cramped, travel-sickness inducing bus.

A train would no doubt draw more passengers, but the X5 illustrates the level of demand is low. There are a few people who commute from the Cambridge area to MK but most of those I knew who did so commented on how long it took.

 

[The Planner]

If you wanted 2tph for example from Bedford direct to MK, then its also extra tracks to MK, not just a chord.

 

[Nodding Cat Ch]

Thanks guys. Ref the MK connect to CB

 

[cle]

If you wanted 2tph for example from Bedford direct to MK, then its also extra tracks to MK, not just a chord.

And that fifth track is not explicitly ruled out, correct? Even if $$$ and unlikely. I'd think it would be more likely for a future Aylesbury, or LNR services to MKC (peaks which terminate at Bletchley or even some Trings) - than Cambridge reversers... but maybe that will change.

 

[The Planner]

And that fifth track is not explicitly ruled out, correct? Even if $$$ and unlikely. I'd think it would be more likely for a future Aylesbury, or LNR services to MKC (peaks which terminate at Bletchley or even some Trings) - than Cambridge reversers... but maybe that will change.

At the moment there won't be anything extra built, Aylesbury or anything else isn't going to work without it though unless other WCML slow line trains are removed.

 

[mr_jrt]

Path-wise, are the only gaps available between Bletchley and MK those of the Tring terminators, then? Does nothing terminate from the south at Bletchley any more? (he says, vaguely recalling that such things might have once existed).

Could you squeeze more paths out with signalling changes (i.e. smaller blocks) and things like speed reductions on that short section in lieu of additional tracks?

 

[The Planner]

Path-wise, are the only gaps available between Bletchley and MK those of the Tring terminators, then? Does nothing terminate from the south at Bletchley any more? (he says, vaguely recalling that such things might have once existed).

Could you squeeze more paths out with signalling changes (i.e. smaller blocks) and things like speed reductions on that short section in lieu of additional tracks?

Distance is too short to do that really.

 

[zwk500]

Could you squeeze more paths out with signalling changes (i.e. smaller blocks)

Between Bletchley and MK you have Denbigh Hall South and Denbigh Hall North junctions as well as the MKC station throat. Neither can be moved and the signals are where they pretty much have to be to protect the junctions yet meet the braking distance requirements so smaller blocks would need ETCS.

and things like speed reductions on that short section in lieu of additional tracks?

Speed changes wouldn't have much impact on capacity over that distance and would negatively impact on freight that runs nonstop.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Speed changes wouldn't have much impact on capacity over that distance and would negatively impact on freight that runs nonstop.

What is the current daily freight pattern?

 

[zwk500]

What is the current daily freight pattern?

Not sure, been a while since I was jnvilved closely but it certainly used to be a standard hourly path for class 4s.
But freight isn't what's stopping the signals from moving, the junctions are where they are.

 

[mr_jrt]

Distance is too short to do that really.

Is that also the reason I see people talking about a 5th track and not a new pair of tracks, then?

 

[richieb1971]

There were 24 freights on Wednesday running between 7am and 5pm at Bletchley.
Around another 8 ran in the 5pm-7pm window which seems really high.
Only 1 freight came from the Marston Vale direction.

EWR meets the WCML with a direct connection to both slows on the WCML. Google maps shows there is no current connection to the up slow from EWR's down slow connection. Although there is remnants of points that were once active. To get to the bay platform at MKC requires switching to the down slow and then crossing the up slow to reach the bay platform. Considering the short distances it makes me wonder if the up slow will be bi-directional.

 

[a good off]

Northampton Gateway railfreight terminal is about to be plumbed into the Northampton loop. This will also produce traffic requiring paths between MK and Denbigh Hall.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Path-wise, are the only gaps available between Bletchley and MK those of the Tring terminators, then? Does nothing terminate from the south at Bletchley any more? (he says, vaguely recalling that such things might have once existed).

Only peak time starters/terminators coming off the sidings (these are really Tring stoppers but some operate in service as they might as well). The standard pattern contains no Bletchley terminators, but 2tph MKC terminators.

 

[richieb1971]

Northampton Gateway railfreight terminal is about to be plumbed into the Northampton loop. This will also produce traffic requiring paths between MK and Denbigh Hall.

HS2 to the rescue then.

 

[DarloRich]

In the 24 hour period of Wednesday there were 62 freights passing Bletchley plus 4 light engines and 5 others made up of 2 x postal trains, 2 x weedkiller runs (?) and one unknown.

it is crazy level of freight trains

EWR meets the WCML with a direct connection to both slows on the WCML. Google maps shows there is no current connection to the up slow from EWR's down slow connection.

Has that connection not been put back in?

Only 1 freight came from the Marston Vale direction.

on Wednesday there were 2 freights ( Bletchley > Peak Forrest & Toton > Dollands Moor) via the vale plus a light loco to collect a broken(?) freight in the loop just north of Bletchley station.

I am sure in theory some of those freights above could go out via the Vale and the MML, especially overnight ( as long as they are quiet. Some of will be sleeping and hear them enough going through Bletchley!)

 

[richieb1971]

Although EWR will run trains xtph it won't be running them 24 hours a day. The Peak Forrest doesn't touch the WCML.

If the Northampton loop distribution booms it could be a problem as currently the only path from Felixstowe is via London that makes any sense. HS2 is many years away.

 

[DarloRich]

The Peak Forrest doesn't touch the WCML.

it comes down via the WCML after a stagger from the Peak district to Crewe ( usually - it can run either way & does from time to to time) and goes back via the vale and MML sometimes only as far as Wellingbrough

 

[richieb1971]

it comes down via the WCML after a stagger from the Peak district to Crewe ( usually - it can run either way & does from time to to time) and goes back via the vale and MML sometimes only as far as Wellingbrough

Your right. I never did understand why it goes via Crewe on occasion. At least if it goes via MML in the future exclusively it knocks one off the list. But lets face it, if there is a boom in freight you're alieviating a problem in one place and putting it in another. 95% of freight traffic in the Bletchley area is intermodal boxes and about 15%-20% of it is OHLE driven.

 

[zwk500]

Considering the short distances it makes me wonder if the up slow will be bi-directional.

The Up Slow between Denbigh Hall South and MKC is already Bi-di. AIUI the high level lines between Bletchlry and Denbigh Hall S will be put back as was after EWR construction is finished.

 

[The Planner]

Northampton Gateway railfreight terminal is about to be plumbed into the Northampton loop. This will also produce traffic requiring paths between MK and Denbigh Hall.

That will get 4tpd if its lucky. Its already understood that any significant increase above that needs interventions elsewhere.

Is that also the reason I see people talking about a 5th track and not a new pair of tracks, then?

Any major uplift is probably going to need six.

Your right. I never did understand why it goes via Crewe on occasion. At least if it goes via MML in the future exclusively it knocks one off the list. But lets face it, if there is a boom in freight you're alieviating a problem in one place and putting it in another. 95% of freight traffic in the Bletchley area is intermodal boxes and about 15%-20% of it is OHLE driven.

It will likely be a Y path to cover cyclical maintenance blocks.

 

[Class 170101]

HS2 to the rescue then.

Doesn't really help freight unless said freight only runs between Wembley and Crewe as capacity isn't being released elsewhere beyond HS2.

 

[richieb1971]

Milton Keynes is between Wembley and crewe.

 

[William3000]

It's not going to be a major market. The X5 bus serves/served this corridor and the number of through passengers was very low.
Reversing in Platform 5 remains an option for Bedford or Cambridge to MK trains. I think an avoiding curve may happen but not for at least 20 years.

I think it will be a significant market for Cambridge passengers travelling to the Midlands and North West. I know several people (myself included) who drive across to MKC to go to the North West as trains from East Anglia are painfully slow.