Philip
On Moderation
How many 196s will EWR/Chiltern/WMT be using once the line is open between Oxford and Bletchley?
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East-West Rail (EWR): What stock might be used once the line is open between Oxford and Bletchley?
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Is it confirmed that 196s will be used?
12LDA28C
Established Member
I read some time ago that initially six of WMT's 2-car Class 196 units will be used to provide EWR services until EWR's own fleet of around a dozen 3-car units is built.
That was certainly the original plan, I've not heard that it has changed.
Do WMT have enough for that... the 175s would work quite well for the route...
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There is sense in 175s to Chiltern, releasing LHCS and some 165s, and use them (or indeed 165s) on EWR.
Philip
On Moderation
Recent posts have suggested the LHCS won't be replaced at all, and the 196s seem to be the likely stock for EWR.
12LDA28C
Established Member
Using 30+ year-old 75mph stock on a shiny brand new 100mph railway wouldn't be a great look...
No trains at all would be worse, however.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And not all new openings have got new stock. None of the Welsh Valleys ones did, nor did Tweedbank which is 158s and 170s, nor did Corby. Indeed, surely getting new stock for new openings has just been tramways and HS1/2?
165s are too slow for EWR. Chiltern should run the initial service and be given the 175 fleet.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I am not sure on speed - it is a 100mph line but little more than a country branch in practice. I do however agree that as the only major operator of DMUs in the area Chiltern should indeed operate it.
especially as they wouldn't be able to meet timings needed for the proposed timetable...
It'd be interesting to see what the paths were timed for when the analysis was done. I suspect 165s were used to prove the concept, although can't prove it directly.
Doctor Fegg
Established Member
It's not an immediate prospect, but a Full Business Case study is about to be commissioned for the Cowley branch line, and the intention appears to be that it'll be served by the Chiltern services running through Oxford station. So it's plausible that the bays might be freed up in the next few years anyway.
The Planner
Veteran Member
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The timetable won't work unless they are 100mph units.
A random 100mph unit would have been used in the modelling. It certainly wasn't a 165.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It appears they have already cleared 196s to Bedford except P1A at Bedford itself...I'm not sure what else the intention would be there!
The random 100mph unit was a 185 so they're already pretty optimistic.
Jammy Dodger
Member
mods note - two threads merged at this point.
Created as a spin-off to discuss/speculate about potential operators and rolling stock for EWR.
Created as a spin-off to discuss/speculate about potential operators and rolling stock for EWR.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The reason why I think Chiltern is a sensible initial operator is that they have a DMU depot nearby (very easily accessible as long as Aylesbury is connected back on, even if not to passenger standards and with no passenger service, but still not hard to access via Oxford and Risborough) and they operate a large fleet of DMUs. They could well decide to outstation staff and a few DMUs at Bletchley, of course, that's up to them if it's more convenient to do so.
WMT may have DMUs but the maintenance depots are a long way away from Bletchley, which has historically caused a lot of unreliability on the Marston Vale, which really isn't acceptable for higher priority EWR.
What DMUs they might or might not use is relatively moot here.
I keep hearing in various places that that is by no means confirmed and may not happen. Plus even if it does it doesn't confirm that WMT will operate them; they could be based at Bletchley or even Aylesbury and just sent to Tyseley for heavy maintenance.
WMT may have DMUs but the maintenance depots are a long way away from Bletchley, which has historically caused a lot of unreliability on the Marston Vale, which really isn't acceptable for higher priority EWR.
What DMUs they might or might not use is relatively moot here.
I keep hearing in various places that that is by no means confirmed and may not happen. Plus even if it does it doesn't confirm that WMT will operate them; they could be based at Bletchley or even Aylesbury and just sent to Tyseley for heavy maintenance.
12LDA28C
Established Member
No need for speculation. Pretty sure the decision would have been made already, as route learning etc will need to commence in little over a year's time.
If the quote about sub-leasing from WMT (or LNR) is correct, clearly WMT will not be operating them.
Jammy Dodger
Member
I assume that would be for Oxford - Bedford services, with frequencies at 1tph at most? Once Bedford - Cambridge services are started, along with an increase to 2tph Oxford - Cambridge (and any other intermediary services), more stock will be needed.
My guess (long-term) would be to use 4-car FLIRT's (755's?), or a bi-mode Aventra. If it was all electrified, the dormant 379's could be used (with some light refurbishment)...
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think the initial service is 2tph MKC-Oxford, which would require two pairs of units, one unit spare for emergencies and the other maintenance? I don't think the initial service is going to go to Bedford.
Long term I think it will be operated by Chiltern using whatever they're using, including it being electrified as part of that.
Jammy Dodger
Member
IMO Cross-Country makes more sense (especially given their experience with 170's between Stansted and Birmingham) in the longer term, given that it is a cross-country type route, and Cambridge is rather far away from the Chilterns...
Andyjs247
Member
I would love to see 755s operating on this service. They are excellent trains although neither Chiltern or WMT operate them.
If the train service between is due to start in early 2025, when does the train operator need to have stock in place to train staff?
If the train service between is due to start in early 2025, when does the train operator need to have stock in place to train staff?
Jammy Dodger
Member
Would be decent options, the interior is the same as an intercity (745's), they are fast and quiet due to the power-pack design. Downsides are (like all UK FLIRT's) are the width and floor height (should be designed to the standard 1100mm, even if it gives level boarding at some stations)
End of this year, I'd assume. Crew training will take 6-9 months (main limitation is drivers). I don't even think all of the 196's have been delivered to WMR yet, and would likely be needed until the 730's arrive (whenever that will be)
Trainbike46
Established Member
The FLIRT floor height is designed to match the UK standard platform height, that really isn't a disadvantage, it is a key advantage of them, level boarding is game changing, and all new trains really should require matching the standard platform height for level boarding, as well as gap fillers like on the FLIRT
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's a regional service, not a long distance one; I'm not convinced about adding more services to XC like the Class 170 services they already have which are a very bad fit and could do with being taken off them.
12LDA28C
Established Member
Except that CrossCountry do not currently operate any trains over any part of the route, and Chiltern already run trains over the Western section of EWR between Oxford and Bicester.
Passenger trains from December 2024 timetable isn't it? With testing from Spring 2024.
gordonthemoron
Established Member
Surely 2 car trains are too short?
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