East West Rail - possible future service patterns?

[A0wen]

But I think Bristol / EWR / MKC could be a winner, in time.

Based on what ?

What demand is there to travel to/from MK to Swindon or Bristol ?

 

[Nottingham59]

Based on what ?

What demand is there to travel to/from MK to Swindon or Bristol ?

Bristol - Swindon - Oxford - Milton Keynes - Beford - Cambridge form quite a distinct chain across the country, as shown in this night-time satellite view of the UK. (London is bottom right; Birmingham top left)



When there is a direct rail connection between these centres of population, there would seem to be a possibility at least of a demand for travel along that axis.

 

[fishwomp]

I'd have one tph Oxford - Bedford calling at Bicester Village, Winslow, Bletchley, Woburn Sands and Bedford.

I haven't seen if MML would change calling pattern when Bedford to MKC and Oxford opens - linking up Nottingham and Leicester to Oxford would be a big improvement over the current journeys, and possibly same for Sheffield.

It’s not really EWR but the rumoured Oxford-Moor St service could in theory start back at Swindon if helpful for connectivity

What rumour is that??

 

[A0wen]

Bristol - Swindon - Oxford - Milton Keynes - Beford - Cambridge form quite a distinct chain across the country, as shown in this night-time satellite view of the UK. (London is bottom right; Birmingham top left)

View attachment 168095

When there is a direct rail connection between these centres of population, there would seem to be a possibility at least of a demand for travel along that axis.

There's never been sufficient demand for a regular Oxford Bristol servive, so I think that possibility is tenuous at best.

 

[Nottingham59]

There's never been sufficient demand for a regular Oxford Bristol servive, so I think that possibility is tenuous at best.

Sure. But Bristol-Oxford plus Bristol-Milton Keynes might be sufficient. Who knows?
But it's only speculation. It all depends on what traffic patterns develop after EWR opens to Bletchley .

 

[The Planner]

Sure. But Bristol-Oxford plus Bristol-Milton Keynes might be sufficient. Who knows?
But it's only speculation. It all depends on what traffic patterns develop after EWR opens to Bletchley .

A substantial part of it depends on what happens with Oxford and Oxford North Jn.

 

[MarkyT]

There's never been sufficient demand for a regular Oxford Bristol servive, so I think that possibility is tenuous at best.

Probably because even with few intermediate stops it would be slow over the distance compared to train via a change at Didcot.

 

[cle]

Based on what ?

What demand is there to travel to/from MK to Swindon or Bristol ?

What demand is there from anywhere to anywhere by rail, until it is possible? We have no idea on the car journeys made, which would be far more logical data than the rail journeys via London. But the 'trips not made' - due to inability of access and that perception - is the real growth potential.

With that mentality, we'd never improve or add anything. But I don't see optimism in many of your posts, without being deliberately rude. We do need a sense check in this sub-forum, I get it but things and conditions change. Be more open minded

Saying something tried in a much worse service, smaller rail usage, bad stock, slower... you name it - can never work again in different conditions 20 years later in a different world, would again see us never improve or retry anything.

Nobody would have thought 3tph to Manchester would be needed. Or the XC frequencies/situation we have today.

And take a look at almost every reopening or re-imagining - like the ELL, WLL or NLL. All crazy growth, from destitute pasts. With a good, modern service, people do come and it exceeds expectations. This particular example connects lots of affluent or buoyant places, and gives a lot of new city pairs which add up to a thing. It's not all A-E, but A-C, B-D/E, C-E etc on these routes.

No-one travels e2e from Stansted to Birmingham or Liverpool to Newcastle at much scale. But the sum of parts and overlapping segments are what make some of these services interesting.

 

[VItraveller]

A very far-fetched unlikely idea, but how about a service from Liverpool to Brighton via nuneaton, Milton Keynes, Oxford, Reading, Guildford, Gatwick, and then onto Brighton.

 

[A0wen]

Sure. But Bristol-Oxford plus Bristol-Milton Keynes might be sufficient. Who knows?
But it's only speculation. It all depends on what traffic patterns develop after EWR opens to Bletchley .

Milton Keynes - Bristol is about 110 miles a similar distance to MK - Norwich or MK - Stoke - and there isn't *that much* demand for MK - Stoke which is only enabled because both happen to be on the main route between London & Manchester.

 

[Armchair Bob]

A very far-fetched unlikely idea, but how about a service from Liverpool to Brighton via nuneaton, Milton Keynes, Oxford, Reading, Guildford, Gatwick, and then onto Brighton.

Wouldn't that go Nuneaton-Coventry-Leamington-Banbury, instead of doing a dog-leg?

 

[cle]

The closest official idea I saw in this vein was a Southampton - Bedford/Cambridge via Oxford, as part of a Reading area improvements study by NR. But assumed Cambridge being built.

Reading to Manchester via Stoke might make more sense (it could take a WCML path from a Manchester at MKC once HS2 opens) - and enable another service to go to Liverpool perhaps.

 

[A0wen]

A very far-fetched unlikely idea, but how about a service from Liverpool to Brighton via nuneaton, Milton Keynes, Oxford, Reading, Guildford, Gatwick, and then onto Brighton.

Lack of capacity between Gatwick and Brighton for starters ?
I'll never understand this obsession on Rail Forums for running XC services to Brighton - just because it used to happen doesn't mean it makes sense.

The closest official idea I saw in this vein was a Southampton - Bedford/Cambridge via Oxford, as part of a Reading area improvements study by NR. But assumed Cambridge being built.

Reading to Manchester via Stoke might make more sense (it could take a WCML path from a Manchester at MKC once HS2 opens) - and enable another service to go to Liverpool perhaps.

Problem there is you have to cross the WCML at Nuneaton and Coventry and neither Nuneaton - Coventry nor Coventry - Leamington are particularly quick. It would probably be quicker to go via MK and East West, not least because both are higher speed lines.

 

[cle]

Sorry, Reading to Manchester via Stoke, I meant also via EWR/MKC. But as opposed to Crewe, which will be on HS2 in some shape or form - was my point.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Out of curiosity.... Are they any current freight paths which - from a timing perspective - could be better routed between Oxford and Bletchley / Bedford?
I recognise it's dependent on route learning, route signing, track access charges (which might negate any advantage over existing booked routes and paths).

 

[The Planner]

Out of curiosity.... Are they any current freight paths which - from a timing perspective - could be better routed between Oxford and Bletchley / Bedford?
I recognise it's deoendent on route learning, route signing, track access charges (which might negate any advantage over existing booked routes and paths).

Any Trafford Park/Ditton/Garston to Southampton may end up that way.

 

[fishwomp]

Any Trafford Park/Ditton/Garston to Southampton may end up that way.

.. and to East Mids Gateway, Masborough, Doncaster, Donnington possibly, Milford, Mountsorell, Cliffe Hill - those could all route via MML nicely.

 

[DJ_K666]

Lack of capacity between Gatwick and Brighton for starters ?
I'll never understand this obsession on Rail Forums for running XC services to Brighton - just because it used to happen doesn't mean it makes sense.



Problem there is you have to cross the WCML at Nuneaton and Coventry and neither Nuneaton - Coventry nor Coventry - Leamington are particularly quick. It would probably be quicker to go via MK and East West, not least because both are higher speed lines.

Did that back in BR days when I went to Didcot for the day, back when I lived in Shoreham. Unfortunately the 'Sussex Scot' used the Didcot avoiding line (the east curve?) So we had to change at Reading. Still, we deliberately targeted that train as it was convenient. This was also how I discovered the existence of the Cholsey & Wallingford railway.

The second time we went via Southampton but still had to change at Reading. Traction from Reading to Didcot Parkway was a 47 and mk2s. Result!

But yes it'd be handy for cross London without the tube but how many pax are actually doing that sort of journey? It wasnt lightly loaded and got busy after East Croydon iirc, standing room only after Kenny Olympia on the trip I did, but that was a weekend so I've no idea how well used it was during the week.

 

[A S Leib]

But yes it'd be handy for cross London without the tube but how many pax are actually doing that sort of journey?

East Croydon – Luton Airport Parkway, with the benefit of 4 direct tph and the draw of an airport (which of course there is in Gatwick and Birmingham's case as well), is 27,000 passengers per year, making it the 41st busiest flow from East Croydon.

 

[DJ_K666]

East Croydon – Luton Airport Parkway, with the benefit of 4 direct tph and the draw of an airport (which of course there is in Gatwick and Birmingham's case as well), is 27,000 passengers per year, making it the 41st busiest flow from East Croydon.

That makes sense. A lot of passengers go from Luton. I prefer it to Stansted tbh.
That said I really dislike flying, especially that ear thing from the pressure.

 

[The Planner]

.. and to East Mids Gateway, Masborough, Doncaster, Donnington possibly, Milford, Mountsorell, Cliffe Hill - those could all route via MML nicely.

Not until the Marston Vale and MML is W10.

 

[JKF]

Could we go all-in and do Penzance to Lowestoft? Furthest west to furthest east.

It’d make an interesting railtour at least!

 

[fishwomp]

Not until the Marston Vale and MML is W10.

Presumably not many tunnels to worry about on Marston Vale - not bridges, it's full of level crossings!

MML missing W10 too, cripes..? Derby- Sheffield old road to Rotherham must be clear as already having freightliners. Then East Mids Gateway to Syston also covered by Felixstowe runs. I hadn't appreciated that our "too busy" WCML was taking Tilbury trains to E Mids Gateway all the way to Nuneaton.. instead of clearing the MML for it.

 

[Nottingham59]

Presumably not many tunnels to worry about on Marston Vale - not bridges, it's full of level crossings!

MML missing W10 too, cripes..? Derby- Sheffield old road to Rotherham must be clear as already having freightliners. Then East Mids Gateway to Syston also covered by Felixstowe runs. I hadn't appreciated that our "too busy" WCML was taking Tilbury trains to E Mids Gateway all the way to Nuneaton.. instead of clearing the MML for it.

MML freight is mostly aggregates. There really wouldn't be much intermodal traffic, even if it were upgraded to W12

 

[DJ_K666]

Is anyone else planning to go and have a ride on it once it opens?

 

[Sun Chariot]

Is anyone else planning to go and have a ride on it once it opens?

Yes, I'll make a trip or two next year

I rode some of it before 1993's mothballing (Aylesbury - Claydon Jcn - Bletchley Denbigh Hall Jcn - Milton Keynes Central and back)

 

[DJ_K666]

Yes, I'll make a trip or two next year

I rode some of it before 1993's mothballing (Aylesbury - Claydon Jcn - Bletchley Denbigh Hall Jcn - Milton Keynes Central and back)

Wow that sounds like a good day out.
I think my model railway club is planning something

 

[Sun Chariot]

Wow that sounds like a good day out.

It was an NSE sponsored "Christmas Shopper Special", early December 1991. Pair of 108/115 power twins.
I was definitely "not a shopper" on that I've a 35mm shot of us rounding the eastward curve at Claydon Junction.

I was stood on the ground at that same spot, in the following summer, taking photos of 56053 rounding Claydon Junction curve and then running round its domestic waste train.
Happy times!

 

[daodao]

Until Didcot/Oxford is electrified, the Oxford/Milton Keynes service could be combined with the Didcot/Oxford locals (admittedly not as simple since half the latter were withdrawn and replaced by stops on the Oxford/Paddington fast trains).

That would increase connectivity from EWR to places served by GW main line services to the west of Didcot. Chiltern could take over the Didcot-Banbury stopping service too.

 

[DavidGrain]

There has been mention of the Cowley branch on this thread so I am guessing this is the appropriate place to mention this new video.

This goes into the history of the line, the places it passes through and discusses its likely success.