East West Rail Project (Rolling Stock)

[Jacob Porrett]

It's been mentioned a few times before the the rolling stock used on the new East West Railway from Bletchley will be a number of WMR 196s. Do we know roughly how many please just out of interest?

 

[RUK]

This says 6 out of the 12 2-car units: https://www.modernrailways.com/article/196s-east-west-rail

 

[Jacob Porrett]

This says 6 out of the 12 2-car units: https://www.modernrailways.com/article/196s-east-west-rail

Thank you

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes, but will WMR be operating said 196s on EWR or lending them to a more appropriate operator?

 

[D365]

Yes, but will WMR be operating said 196s on EWR or lending them to a more appropriate operator?

Last I read was that Chiltern will be operating London Marylebone to Milton Keynes Central.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes, but will WMR be operating said 196s on EWR or lending them to a more appropriate operator?

Assuming based out of Bletchley

 

[Bletchleyite]

Last I read was that Chiltern will be operating London Marylebone to Milton Keynes Central.

That's not been the proposal for years (indeed the Aylesbury section that would have allowed that isn't now in the initial plan, only Oxford). It will be self-contained, and I'd be astonished if it wasn't WMT operating it as there's then no complication about who owns the units.

 

[172007]

Well, if it the 196's to do East West then somewhere one he'll of a inefficiency may crop up with maintenence. Either LNWR from Bletchley have them and they are swapped it for maintenance and unit failures via the WCML and Tyseley or. Aylesbury ends up after getting shot of the 172 micro fleet with another micro fleet to look after.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Last I read was that Chiltern will be operating London Marylebone to Milton Keynes Central.

Chiltern would make sense but the publications I’ve read have all suggested 1tph Aylesbury MKC, 2tph Oxford MKC, 1tph Oxford Bedford initially.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Chiltern would make sense but the publications I’ve read have all suggested 1tph Aylesbury MKC, 2tph Oxford MKC, 1tph Oxford Bedford initially.

That sounds a lot more that six units doesn't it ? Especially if they are diagrammed as 2x2 car.
Or has another rolling stock decision been planned ?

I cannot believe the well educated in Oxford would countenance brand new diesel trains in three years time, after COP26 last year.

It should be electrified - end of

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chiltern would make sense but the publications I’ve read have all suggested 1tph Aylesbury MKC, 2tph Oxford MKC, 1tph Oxford Bedford initially.

Aylesbury has been dropped. Nominally only until HS2 is done (because HS2 requires a bit of the route near Calvert to be dug up), but possibly for good.

2tph Oxford-MKC and 1tph Oxford-Bedford is your lot for now, and I'm sure I heard that the latter may itself be in doubt. 6 units would be plenty for just the former.

 

[Trainbike46]

That sounds a lot more that six units doesn't it ? Especially if they are diagrammed as 2x2 car.
Or has another rolling stock decision been planned ?

I cannot believe the well educated in Oxford would countenance brand new diesel trains in three years time, after COP26 last year.

It should be electrified - end of

It is ridiculous to build a new railway, specifically one that is supposed to take freight, nowadays without electrifying it from the outset. I don't understand why the government doesn't see this

Aylesbury has been dropped. Nominally only until HS2 is done (because HS2 requires a bit of the route near Calvert to be dug up), but possibly for good.

2tph Oxford-MKC and 1tph Oxford-Bedford is your lot for now, and I'm sure I heard that the latter may itself be in doubt. 6 units would be plenty for just the former.

Wouldn't whatever it starts with be temporary anyway untill the Bedford-Cambridge section gets build?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wouldn't whatever it starts with be temporary anyway untill the Bedford-Cambridge section gets build?

I think that's a big "if" now. As the Oxford Cambridge Arc development proposals have been dropped, I'd expect EWR East to be dropped as well in due course as its funding was predicated on those proposals. That'll leave MKC-Oxford as the only service, with Aylesbury possibly added later. Still useful but quite a climbdown, and could mean the 196s are "it" for the foreseeable.

Could be worse, could be cast-off 150s.

 

[Wyrleybart]

It is ridiculous to build a new railway, specifically one that is supposed to take freight, nowadays without electrifying it from the outset. I don't understand why the government doesn't see this


Wouldn't whatever it starts with be temporary anyway untill the Bedford-Cambridge section gets build?

Absolutely. This country, and specifically this industry is trying to manage itself in five year terms which is utterly ridiculous. You don't build a new power station or a new airport by saying, "oh yeah, we aren't adding car parking spaces for the next five years because we can't afford it. We might add them at year seven" !!!

 

[swt_passenger]

Last I read was that Chiltern will be operating London Marylebone to Milton Keynes Central.

It was formally dropped by DfT sometime before the TWA application was made, unfortunately. The inquiry inspectors report published in 2019 referenced the de-scoping.

 

[hooverboy]

That sounds a lot more that six units doesn't it ? Especially if they are diagrammed as 2x2 car.
Or has another rolling stock decision been planned ?

I cannot believe the well educated in Oxford would countenance brand new diesel trains in three years time, after COP26 last year.

It should be electrified - end of

Wasn't there an invitation to tender put out not long ago,by eat west rail themselves?
They were looking for something like 14 second generation units to cover the proposed routes.

I would agree that chiltern probably does make the most sense, they could use the new 196's on the marylebone to birmingham routes.
With 196 servicing and maintenance quite close by, and the CAF units having better acceleration there would be a couple of advantages here. The present 168's could then be cascaded to the east west routes.
If and when they complete the cambridge link-up, they may still be able to have some servicing done at norwich crown point. Failing that ,divert at bedford to run up the MML to derby.

 

[TheBigD]

As someone that hasn't taken much interest in the project, what are the journey times proposed for Bedford/Milton Keynes to Oxford serviced?

 

[fgwrich]

Wasn't there an invitation to tender put out not long ago,by eat west rail themselves?
They were looking for something like 14 second generation units to cover the proposed routes.

I would agree that chiltern probably does make the most sense, they could use the new 196's on the marylebone to birmingham routes.
With 196 servicing and maintenance quite close by, and the CAF units having better acceleration there would be a couple of advantages here. The present 168's could then be cascaded to the east west routes.
If and when they complete the cambridge link-up, they may still be able to have some servicing done at norwich crown point. Failing that ,divert at bedford to run up the MML to derby.

There would be little point in 196s, hired in from WMR to operate the East - West line, to be used on Chilterns core Marylebone to Birmingham services cascading Chilterns own units to a service being subcontracted from EWR. Particularly after Chiltern ridding themselves of another micro fleet in the form of the 172s. Regarding the acceleration point of view - it would make little difference. Chiltern ordered it's fleet of 4 172s based on rapid acceleration for it's inner London services (Marylebone - Wembley - Sudbury - Sudbury - Northolt - Ruislip etc) but ended up using them in the same common pool as it's 165s, eventually using them on London - Oxford / Stratford services.

 

[hooverboy]

There would be little point in 196s, hired in from WMR to operate the East - West line, to be used on Chilterns core Marylebone to Birmingham services cascading Chilterns own units to a service being subcontracted from EWR. Particularly after Chiltern ridding themselves of another micro fleet in the form of the 172s. Regarding the acceleration point of view - it would make little difference. Chiltern ordered it's fleet of 4 172s based on rapid acceleration for it's inner London services (Marylebone - Wembley - Sudbury - Sudbury - Northolt - Ruislip etc) but ended up using them in the same common pool as it's 165s, eventually using them on London - Oxford / Stratford services.

I was talking about cascading the clubmans to ewr.

The 172's chiltern had, had a 75mph top speed.The gearing was changed to improve the acceleration sacrificing top end capability.They would not be at all suitable for EWR.
168' s are only 0.5m s^2, whereas the 196's are somewhere around the 0.8m s^2 mark.The CAF units really are noticeably quicker off the blocks.
Clubmans being the primary traction on london- oxford/birmingham,could see those journey times shaved quite considerably with the introduction of something like the 196.

 

[JonathanH]

Clubmans being the primary traction on london- oxford/birmingham,could see those journey times shaved quite considerably with the introduction of something like the 196.

Really? Do they stop enough that a bit of extra acceleration takes any more than a few minutes off the schedule given the same top speed?

How much quicker is the EWR schedule going to be using 196s than if they had used 168s or similar?

 

[The Planner]

All very well shaving a couple of minutes off, it is whether you can utilise it in the timetable.

 

[Suraggu]

All this talk of 'if 196s were cascaded to Chiltern' isn't going to happen. Not at least until 2030 anyway.

EWR are planning to sublease WMR 196s based at Bletchley until more suitable rolling stock is available as mentioned in other threads

 

[Wyrleybart]

EWR are planning to sublease WMR 196s based at Bletchley until more suitable rolling stock is available as mentioned in other threads

That presents a pretty good situation actually. If EWR are starting with brand new 196s, although they will be four or five years old by then, EWR will then have to come up with new new stock to replace the 196s, because they cannot really go from new trains to 2nd hand trains can they.

 

[EnriqueEspaña]

I was talking about cascading the clubmans to ewr.

The 172's chiltern had, had a 75mph top speed.The gearing was changed to improve the acceleration sacrificing top end capability.They would not be at all suitable for EWR.
168' s are only 0.5m s^2, whereas the 196's are somewhere around the 0.8m s^2 mark.The CAF units really are noticeably quicker off the blocks.
Clubmans being the primary traction on london- oxford/birmingham,could see those journey times shaved quite considerably with the introduction of something like the 196.

The 172s Chiltern had always had a top speed of 100mph, I was on one through to Birmingham Moor Street a few years ago which was coupled to a 168 and definitely doing 90. Can you show me your source for suggesting they are only 75mph?

 

[Jacob Porrett]

All this talk of 'if 196s were cascaded to Chiltern' isn't going to happen. Not at least until 2030 anyway.

EWR are planning to sublease WMR 196s based at Bletchley until more suitable rolling stock is available as mentioned in other threads

196s are not going to chiltern anyways...

 

[tspaul26]

As someone that hasn't taken much interest in the project, what are the journey times proposed for Bedford/Milton Keynes to Oxford serviced?

Roughly 60/45mins.

Chiltern would make sense but the publications I’ve read have all suggested 1tph Aylesbury MKC, 2tph Oxford MKC, 1tph Oxford Bedford initially.

Stage 1 is 2tph from Oxford to Bletchley.

That sounds a lot more that six units doesn't it ? Especially if they are diagrammed as 2x2 car.
Or has another rolling stock decision been planned ?

This is only an interim rolling stock solution. The longer term strategy is still being developed and will depend, in part, on the extent to which the line is electrified.

I think that's a big "if" now. As the Oxford Cambridge Arc development proposals have been dropped, I'd expect EWR East to be dropped as well in due course as its funding was predicated on those proposals.

I wouldn’t be too sure on either of those points.

Also, whilst there was a degree of alignment between the Arc policy and the EWR project, they are not inherently linked in this way. For example, they are being promoted by different departments.

The future of Arc policy may have implications for the EWR strategic case, but those are being examined at the moment so nothing has been decided as of yet. Hyperloop was mentioned…

 

[Bletchleyite]

Roughly 60/45mins.


Stage 1 is 2tph from Oxford to Bletchley.

Not now MKC? Utterly, utterly useless. Might as well not bother.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not now MKC? Utterly, utterly useless. Might as well not bother.

We’re getting away from rolling stock, but this isn’t actually “new” news. On the EWR website they define the 3 “connection stages”, and do hint at the possibility that the first service will only be Oxford to Bletchley, but only as a “worst case”. The same document was linked about last June when we discussed future timescales in the EWR construction thread

Our aim is to have trains running between Oxford and Milton Keynes by 2025. But we are very clear – we will not introduce a service that would be unreliable for our passengers, or cause delays elsewhere on the railway. For that reason, we are working with Network Rail and DfT to demonstrate that this service will be reliable from day one..

In the worst case, it may be that we need to introduce the service to Bletchley first and then extend it to Milton Keynes, once we have proved it will run on time. We would rather be transparent about that now, so people know what we are working hard to achieve.

Connection Stages | East West Rail

East West Rail is a major infrastructure project to connect communities between Oxford and Cambridge. Services will be introduced in three stages; from Oxford to Milton Keynes, Oxford to Bedford and Oxford to Cambridge.

eastwestrail.co.uk

 

[The Planner]

Not now MKC? Utterly, utterly useless. Might as well not bother.

I would suggest it is going to MK as I hear renewal of Denbigh Hall South with a speed increase is being pushed forward to deliver it.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I would suggest it is going to MK as I hear renewal of Denbigh Hall South with a speed increase is being pushed forward to deliver it.

This is off topic, but why is Denbigh Hall South Junction called Denbigh Hall South? Denbigh is in Wales and I don't think there is anywhere nearby called Denbigh Hall?