ECML in the early 1980’s.

[Magdalia]

The "classic" allocations for the Glasgow-Scarborough were a 37 Queen St-Edinburgh with a Deltic forward after adding additional vehicles. From York it was pot luck, most likely a 40 but occasionally the Deltic would run-round and work through to the coast.

Deltics were not usual traction on the Glasgow-Scarborough, they had more important things to do. A quick look on the interweb suggests there's three known workings: 55019 on 09/08/80, 55022 on 15/08/81 and 55014 on 29/08/81.

Rail Gen Archive suggests class 40s were the most common.

The loco from Edinburgh usually ran round at York.

 

[D1537]

Only 47411-4 went to GD in 5/79. 47401-10 were swapped out in 8/79.

The Mk 1 commuter sets were the last daytime LHCS sets maintained at BN, there were 5 x 8 coach VB SH Mk 1 sets at the start of the decade, all working off Peterborough Nene sidings in the mornings - 4 starting Peterborough and 1 starting Grantham, all booked for a cl.31 in 1979. By 1985, the number of sets required had fallen to 3, HST sets now filling in on some of the workings.

Yes, my mistake. I believe the plan was for them all to go to GD in May but there was some slight delay with the introduction of some HST services and so they remained at FP for a while longer.

 

[Taunton]

Was for a lot of the 1970s in Edinburgh, and visiting Cambridge.

Surprised me how often the Kings Cross-Cambridge loco hauled services had a Gateshead 46. They really seemed a maid of all work up and down the ECML, which I initially hadn't expected. In contrast, I can't remember a single Class 40 hauled express south of Edinburgh (they were standard north, to Aberdeen).

The transfer of WR air con stock after they got HSTs was only for a very short period, as the ECML HST production followed directly on from the WR ones - I went on the WR a couple of months after the full service started, and already there were ECML HSTs working out of Old Oak on test.

The Deltics seemed to handle as many overnight Edinburgh services as daytime, and commonly made the round trip within about 18 hours. We have discussed here before Deltics getting to Aberdeen, colleague in Edinburgh lived within earshot of the line in Fife and said he heard at least one pass on most days. Kings Cross to Aberdeen was about their fuel limit, they would need to refuel both ends. A key issue with Deltic diagrams was apparently how many were in Doncaster works at once, which used to flex up and down over time.

 

[Magdalia]

Was for a lot of the 1970s in Edinburgh, and visiting Cambridge.

Surprised me how often the Kings Cross-Cambridge loco hauled services had a Gateshead 46. They really seemed a maid of all work up and down the ECML, which I initially hadn't expected. In contrast, I can't remember a single Class 40 hauled express south of Edinburgh (they were standard north, to Aberdeen).

Nearly all of the class 46 and class 40 visits to Cambridge on the buffet expresses were on the 1130 down for 1330 up, they were very rare on any other working. I guess this was a turn worked by Kings Cross men.

The use of classes 40 and 46 at the south end of the ECML has history going back to the Modernisation Plan and the ER and NER being separate regions. But by the mis 1970s nearly all of the daytime ECML trains were aircon, so, if the "old NER" sent up a class 40 or a class 46 on an overnight train then Finsbury Park had little use for it until the following night.

A key issue with Deltic diagrams was apparently how many were in Doncaster works at once, which used to flex up and down over time.

This is partly because the Deltics were a small fleet, and by the mid 1970s they were getting more difficult to maintain.

But they were also a victim of 1970s industrial relations. The drop in availability in 1978 can be linked to a strike at Doncaster Works, and the trump card for the Finsbury Park maintenance staff in unofficial disputes was to refuse to touch the Deltics.

 

[Ken H]

How were the Deltics split between the different regions?
Weren't the Eastern Region ones named after race horses (Allocated Finsbury Park), the Scottish ones named after Scottish regiments (Allocated Haymarket), and the North Eastern Region ones named after regiments from NE territory (Allocated Gateshead)?

Were they muddled up over time or did hey stay at heir original depots till HST's came.
Were they a common user pool, or were specific workings covered by locos from a specific depot?

 

[Magdalia]

How were the Deltics split between the different regions?
Weren't the Eastern Region ones named after race horses (Allocated Finsbury Park), the Scottish ones named after Scottish regiments (Allocated Haymarket), and the North Eastern Region ones named after regiments from NE territory (Allocated Gateshead)?

Yes, that's right.

Were they muddled up over time or did hey stay at heir original depots till HST's came.

Mostly they stayed at their original depots. One exception was at the introduction of air braked stock on the ECML. The Deltics had to be fitted with air brakes and, for a short while in 1967/68, all of the air braked locos were based at Finsbury Park. The Haymarket and Gateshead locos moved to York in 1979, the remaining Finsbury Park locos went to York in May 1981.

Were they a common user pool, or were specific workings covered by locos from a specific depot?

Some years they were a common pool, others each depot had its own diagrams. Napier Chronicles has some diagrams and is the place to look for more information.

 

[Ken H]

Yes, that's right.


Mostly they stayed at their original depots. One exception was at the introduction of air braked stock on the ECML. The Deltics had to be fitted with air brakes and, for a short while in 1967/68, all of the air braked locos were based at Finsbury Park. The Haymarket and Gateshead locos moved to York in 1979, the remaining Finsbury Park locos went to York in May 1981.


Some years they were a common pool, others each depot had its own diagrams. Napier Chronicles has some diagrams and is the place to look for more information.

thanks

 

[Strathclyder]

How were the Deltics split between the different regions?
Weren't the Eastern Region ones named after race horses (Allocated Finsbury Park), the Scottish ones named after Scottish regiments (Allocated Haymarket), and the North Eastern Region ones named after regiments from NE territory (Allocated Gateshead)?

The ones allocated to Finsbury Park were indeed named after winning racehorses: St Paddy (55001), Meld (55003; the only filly out of the 8 'racehorse' Deltics), Pinza (55007), Alycidon (55009), Crepello (55012), Tulyar (55015), Ballymoss (55018) & Nimbus (55020). This was a continuation of the LNER's tradition of naming locos after winning racehorses.

The Gateshead and Haymarket examples were named after British Army regiments in the North East of England & Scotland respectively.

 

[BeijingDave]

Was for a lot of the 1970s in Edinburgh, and visiting Cambridge.

Surprised me how often the Kings Cross-Cambridge loco hauled services had a Gateshead 46. They really seemed a maid of all work up and down the ECML, which I initially hadn't expected. In contrast, I can't remember a single Class 40 hauled express south of Edinburgh (they were standard north, to Aberdeen).

Sorry if this is a slight diversion from the topic.

Was the Kings Cross - Cambridge the premier express service at that time?

I was under the impression that in the 1980s and possibly earlier, Liverpool Street - Cambridge was the faster, more frequent, loco-hauled flagship (for want of a better word) service.

 

[Snow1964]

The transfer of WR air con stock after they got HSTs was only for a very short period, as the ECML HST production followed directly on from the WR ones - I went on the WR a couple of months after the full service started, and already there were ECML HSTs working out of Old Oak on test.

There was also some reformation of the HSTs, initially the western region had some with double catering vehicles, but I am fairly sure the Kitchen unclassified cars moved to the longer services out of Kings Cross around the time the ECML services started. The other catering vehicle was a buffet second. Kitchen-buffet cars were then built and moved to WR instead

The early HSTs didn’t have a TGS (trailer with guards compartment), and I think these were added a couple of years after HSTs started. From memory there were a few extra of these because the DfT didn’t allow all the final batch of HSTs to be built, but the TGS were already ordered as part of a lengthening programme to the cross country HST fleet

 

[jfollows]

Sorry if this is a slight diversion from the topic.

Was the Kings Cross - Cambridge the premier express service at that time?

I was under the impression that in the 1980s and possibly earlier, Liverpool Street - Cambridge was the faster, more frequent, loco-hauled flagship (for want of a better word) service.

It had to be; when the line to Cambridge was electrified but only as far as Royston (1978) the alternative service from Liverpool Street was the primary service. I lived in London 1981-84 so I remember it. From the 1983-84 working timetable, there was an xx.35 from Liverpool Street which was non-stop to Cambridge on even hours and called at Bishop's Stortford and Audley End on odd hours, 1h non-stop, 1h5m with stops. Nothing from King's Cross was comparable because of the change at Royston (1h18m at best from a quick glance with a non-stop Royston-Cambridge run).
The longer-distance King's Lynn services had restaurant cars I think and early Mark 2s when I used them. Nice trains. Later on were electrically hauled to Cambridge once the wires were extended.
EDIT But before the 1978 electrification things were different, that's off-topic for the thread title but the discussion has moved into this area, then there were direct King's Cross to Cambridge express services. Others know more about these than I do!

 

[Ken H]

There was also some reformation of the HSTs, initially the western region had some with double catering vehicles, but I am fairly sure the Kitchen unclassified cars moved to the longer services out of Kings Cross around the time the ECML services started. The other catering vehicle was a buffet second. Kitchen-buffet cars were then built and moved to WR instead

The early HSTs didn’t have a TGS (trailer with guards compartment), and I think these were added a couple of years after HSTs started. From memory there were a few extra of these because the DfT didn’t allow all the final batch of HSTs to be built, but the TGS were already ordered as part of a lengthening programme to the cross country HST fleet

discussion here (Closed thread) https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ns-2-catering-vehicles-for-xc-as-well.203451/

 

[43096]

The early HSTs didn’t have a TGS (trailer with guards compartment), and I think these were added a couple of years after HSTs started. From memory there were a few extra of these because the DfT didn’t allow all the final batch of HSTs to be built, but the TGS were already ordered as part of a lengthening programme to the cross country HST fleet

The orders for the TGS vehicles was placed in 1978, as part of the Cross-Country submission. With one vehicle (44000) using a bodyshell intended for what was going to be 42306 for the second WR order, and there being a requirement for 91 vehicles in total across the HST fleet ordered at that stage, it was handy that the need for second class vehicles for the XC fleet was 90 vehicles. These were all built as TGS vehicles with one displacing a TS from all the previously built built sets and these displaced vehicles then went into the XC sets. Four more TGS (44091-094) were added when the final four sets were authorised and another seven (44095-101) were added as spare vehicles, in theory giving each of the HST depots (OO, PM, LA, BN, NL, HT, EC) a spare TGS.

 

[Magdalia]

Sorry if this is a slight diversion from the topic.

Was the Kings Cross - Cambridge the premier express service at that time?

I was under the impression that in the 1980s and possibly earlier, Liverpool Street - Cambridge was the faster, more frequent, loco-hauled flagship (for want of a better word) service.

It had to be; when the line to Cambridge was electrified but only as far as Royston (1978) the alternative service from Liverpool Street was the primary service. I lived in London 1981-84 so I remember it. From the 1983-84 working timetable, there was an xx.35 from Liverpool Street which was non-stop to Cambridge on even hours and called at Bishop's Stortford and Audley End on odd hours, 1h non-stop, 1h5m with stops. Nothing from King's Cross was comparable because of the change at Royston (1h18m at best from a quick glance with a non-stop Royston-Cambridge run).
The longer-distance King's Lynn services had restaurant cars I think and early Mark 2s when I used them. Nice trains. Later on were electrically hauled to Cambridge once the wires were extended.
EDIT But before the 1978 electrification things were different, that's off-topic for the thread title but the discussion has moved into this area, then there were direct King's Cross to Cambridge express services. Others know more about these than I do!

There were no through Kings Cross-Cambridge services between February 1978, when Royston electric trains started, and May 1988, when Royston-Cambridge went live. In that period Liverpool Street had the advantages of through running and on train catering. But, depending on where you were going to when you got to London, the time advantage wasn't huge. The hourly 2 car dmu shuttle between Cambridge and Royston loaded quite heavily with passengers going to and from Kings Cross. The fast London trains from/to Royston only called at Letchworth, Hitchin and Stevenage. Despite the change at Royston, the overall journey time Cambridge-Kings Cross was faster than the through trains they replaced.

The 1978 Royston electrification provided a big increase in capacity for Cambridge-London, for the first time there was an hourly service by both routes. Before then there was an hourly service to/from London, alternating between Liverpool Street and Kings Cross. In the down direction there was 0836/1036/1236/1436 Liverpool Street to Kings Lynn and 0930/1130/1330/1530 Kings Cross to Cambridge. There was a bit of town versus gown too: trade used Liverpool Street, the dons and the undergraduates used Kings Cross.

After electrification to Cambridge, Kings Cross rapidly became the premier route, especially once the Stansted Express usurped the Cambridge trains as the most important in the Lea Valley.

 

[Helvellyn]

The early HSTs didn’t have a TGS (trailer with guards compartment), and I think these were added a couple of years after HSTs started. From memory there were a few extra of these because the DfT didn’t allow all the final batch of HSTs to be built, but the TGS were already ordered as part of a lengthening programme to the cross country HST fleet

There was one per ordered set once reformations happened, but then an additional seven (44095-44101) were ordered to provide one spare per depot that maintained HSTs so that a defective TGS didn't mean a whole set out of service (because the Guard wouldn't have any accommodation).

 

[30907]

EDIT But before the 1978 electrification things were different, that's off-topic for the thread title but the discussion has moved into this area, then there were direct King's Cross to Cambridge express services.

They were called Cambridge Buffet Expresses and took about 10min longer than the regular GE trains. As they typically made 5 stops en route (Welwyn GC is the one you might not guess), the title was a tad optimistic, but ISTR they had a clientele.

 

[Revaulx]

@Magdalia I can confirm that the Town v Gown split was very much a thing. My first trip to Cambridge was at age 9 in 1966 or 67 and we got the train from Kings Cross. I remember looking at a BR route map during the journey and asking him why we hadn’t gone on the apparently shorter and direct route from Liverpool Street. He replied that in the time he’d been a don, which would have been 30 years earlier, members of the University invariably used the Kings Cross route. He didn’t go as far as saying Liverpool Street was for the plebs!

 

[Magdalia]

They were called Cambridge Buffet Expresses and took about 10min longer than the regular GE trains. As they typically made 5 stops en route (Welwyn GC is the one you might not guess), the title was a tad optimistic, but ISTR they had a clientele.

I have seen the Welwyn Garden City stops in timetables, but I don't remember them as they were taken out in 1973.

I can confirm that the Town v Gown split was very much a thing. My first trip to Cambridge was at age 9 in 1966 or 67 and we got the train from Kings Cross. I remember looking at a BR route map during the journey and asking him why we hadn’t gone on the apparently shorter and direct route from Liverpool Street. He replied that in the time he’d been a don, which would have been 30 years earlier, members of the University invariably used the Kings Cross route. He didn’t go as far as saying Liverpool Street was for the plebs!

I think the distinction was probably most keenly felt in the buffet/restaurant car. The plebs, like me, couldn't afford that, we brought sandwiches and a flask of tea from home. But Liverpool Street was in the City of London. The clientele in a Liverpool Street line restaurant car mostly talked about money, the clientele in a Kings Cross buffet mostly talked about ideas!

 

[Taunton]

Was the Kings Cross - Cambridge the premier express service at that time?

Others have commented meanwhile about this, and probably have more experience too, but until the 1977 electrification the two competing services to Cambridge were notably different. They still followed the pre-1923 division of railways, in that the Kings Cross trains never got further than the bays at the south end of Cambridge station, as their long-beforehand Great Northern services had done, while the Great Eastern services were the through ones to Ely, Kings Lynn, and indeed Norwich. I believe the Cambridge Buffet Expresses on the Kings Cross line were a onetime LNER initiative, when a buffet car itself was a novelty. At dieselisation the GE services got Class 37s, whereas the GN services, always notably lightweight at maybe 6 or 7 coaches, got Class 31s. The town/gown split described sort of went with the destinations in London - if I was headed for Paddington it was a bit tedious to get the Circle Line from Liverpool Street, only to find yourself 10 or more minutes later passing through Kings Cross anyway.

The Kings Cross services certainly had an illusion of being speedier - the convoluted route out of Liverpool Street mixed in with the then very frequent Chingford suburban trains always seemed slow.

Regarding town/gown, i however did read that the Cambridge University Railway Society long ago had their annual dinner in a hired Liverpool Street line restaurant car - in Thornton Heath depot sidings at Stratford!!

 

[D6130]

Thornton Heath depot sidings at Stratford!!

Pedant alert: I think you mean Thornton Field!

 

[Mag_seven]

Pedant alert: I think you mean Thornton Field!

To be even more pedantic its actually Thornton's Field

 

[Taunton]

Site visible (almost) from our house, and I can't even get it right .

 

[30907]

Site visible (almost) from our house, and I can't even get it right .

Thanks all for confirming my memory. As a student at the Other Place, the choice was Paddington (as inconvenient as LST) or the coach - which many students and academics took (and still do, I am told).

 

[Magdalia]

Kings Cross trains never got further than the bays at the south end of Cambridge station

From 1961 to 1966 the 3.5 pm from Kings Cross ran through to Ely.

At dieselisation the GE services got Class 37s

Brush Type 2s worked most Kings Lynn services from September 1958. In 1961-64 the main traction was the 1600hp Brush Type 2s. The EE Type 3s only had a few Cambridge line workings when they were new and only became dominant on the Kings Lynn trains once the Norwich line got Brush type 4s in 1965.

the GN services, always notably lightweight at maybe 6 or 7 coaches, got Class 31s.

The Buffet Expresses were load 7 in the 1960s and later load 8, though I've not been able to date when the change took place. In the 1970s the 1530 up and 1714 down were load 10, and booked for class 47s.

The Buffet Expresses also got diesels very early, with the BRCW and NBL Type 2s in 1959. The Baby Deltics also had a number of turns on the Buffet Expresses in the 1960s.

Regarding town/gown, i however did read that the Cambridge University Railway Society long ago had their annual dinner in a hired Liverpool Street line restaurant car - in Thornton Heath depot sidings at Stratford!!

The Cambridge University Railway Club Annual Dinner was on the train between London and Cambridge until at least 1965. Until 1960 it was in a restaurant car attached to the 8.3pm Liverpool Street to Cambridge stopping train. From 1961 to 1965 the restaurant car was attached to the 8.10pm/8.25pm Kings Cross to Peterborough, detached at Hitchin, then attached to the 9.30pm Kings Cross to Cambridge.

I'm not aware of the Cambridge University Railway Club Annual Dinner being held in carriage sidings. And, as far as I'm concerned Thornton Field is the correct name, that's how it appeared in working timetables. The Great Eastern Railway left off the 's, just like they did at Coldham Lane Junction. Thornton Field sounds like it should be a sports stadium, and now that's what it is.