End of the road for onboard catering?

[crewmeal]

Just come across this article in the Daily Mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1156563/End-buffet-car-Rail-company-plans-scrap-board-catering-credit-crunch.html

Imagine going from London to Scotland without anything to eat or drink, especially Inverness or Aberdeen

 

[37401]

Nooooo why are they doing this, first Cross country take away our on board shop and now NXEC are taking away catering all together, how daft do they realise that food and drink is important?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Nooooo why are they doing this, first Cross country take away our on board shop and now NXEC are taking away catering all together, how daft do they realise that food and drink is important?

If they intend replace the buffet with a trolley, NX should be aware that sandwiches have a very limited life once they are not chilled and NX could be prosecuted if the sandwiches have 'gone off'

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

AlthoughFood/drink trolleys are highly expensive, the are necessary for long distance services no doubt.

 

[caughtonatrain]

Not a crying shame imo. Food/drink trolleys are highly expensive, personally I buy any needed refreshments for a long distance trip prior to boarding the train.

They're no more expensive than the outlets in the stations themselves, which it seems to me are controlled by a monopoly or a cartel. All the receipts I ever get are from "Select Service Partner, Euston". Sounds like a price fix to me.

Bowker is an idiot. It may lose £20 million in cash flow but the bottom line is that it also has an effect on the train's competitiveness over other modes. In a credit crunch situation people may wish to transfer to coaches - but of course NX would welcome this. That's what you get when you let the bus idiots run train services. It;s a bl**dy disgrace.

People take trains because they are comfortable - and catering is important part of this. 14+ hours Aderdeen-Penzance without catering cannot be contemplated. Even 5 hours on the ECML without catering is a step too far.

 

[Metroland]

I think getting rid of *all* catering is way OTT. I don't support NX on this one (assuming the DM article is correct, I'd need to check). But if true, it strikes me as a typical bean counters attitude rather than providing a service. I understand trimming things to survive a recession, but we really don't want it run as a glorified bus service in the long term.

So often efficiency means getting rid of service, front line staff, tearing up long term staff contracts or cutting back on rights, bleeding something dry and offering a lot of crap based on volume. Then the bosses give themselves a pay rise! Great if you are on the gravy train, but it seems not so great these days if you are on a real train.

 

[Failed Unit]

As the source of the article is the daily mail, I won't treat it with that much confidence. They could lose a lot of money if they do as they will be handing significant parts of thier business to open access operators, Virgin and XC.

If you are travelling from Doncaster - London, you would just make sure you picked HT whenever possible so they would lose a lot more than 20m if they did which would be welcomed by other operators. The customers welcomed by HT would give them a greater incentive to run more trains.

I also understand that the level of catering is specified in the franchise and is not an option. (wish we could read it for ourselves) 87 restuarants per day on east coast. If it isn't the government should be strung up as the way it micro manages everything else it should at least have protected the service provision. XC, EMT and FGW when they won the franchise said that the buffets were going, 2 of them have since done a U-turn. National Express said on East Coast that some form of high quality catering was staying, something doesn't sound right a year onwards. Cutting catering may not force people onto the coaches, but into thier cars maybe at least you can get food in motorway service stations. I very much doubt that this is true with the commitment they have made with the recent changes on East Coast, even if it is a reduction of what is offered already. A large backlash would also follow something the government could do without with the election next year,

 

[Metroland]

Still it could be worse, at least one airline is thinking of charging to use the loo, thus in order to keep headline figures low to convince the weak minded they are getting value. In this case passenger fares are cross subsidised by s***.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090227/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_ryanair_toilet

How long will it be before train companies fit £1 meters to toilet doors? I'll give it 5 years. I'm surprised the long distance operators haven't thought about charging for bags, a la low cost airline.

National Express, which operates the East Coast Main Line (ECML), is obliged to pay the Government £1.4bn for the right to run trains between London and Edinburgh until 2015, after winning the franchise at a time of economic growth and booming passenger numbers. Richard Bowker, its chief executive, told The Independent the company was now prepared to axe extra train services as well as snack trolleys and buffet cars after the Government made it clear it would force National Express to hand back the franchise rather than allow it to alter its agreement.

[ translate - announcement on buffet cars is in order to get a public backlash going to put pressure on the government to reconsider what they might have to pay in the next couple of years ]

Mr Bowker said: "Everybody entered into these agreements in good faith in 2007 and there's been a major shock to the system in the meantime. Our catering service is a big loss maker that we keep because we think it is nice to have and part of the full-service philosophy, but that is something we would have to have a look at."

Several analysts have raised concerns over the ECML franchise, which catered for 18 million passengers last year. It is thought that there has been a big fall in the number of passengers travelling first class – an important source of income on the commuter route.

The Government's hard line on maintaining services and its refusal to give rail operators extra funding from the taxpayer has put some franchise owners in financial difficulties, with some analysts suggesting that the state will have to take back control of some routes.

Douglas McNeill, a rail industry analyst at Blue Oar securities, said: "There are certainly indications that the ECML is not in the happiest state. It's fairly clear now that some of the franchises awarded more recently have been based on quite optimistic assumptions about passenger numbers. Some of that optimism will be prove to be misplaced."

Yesterday, National Express slashed the dividend it will hand out to shareholders as it pledged to hold on to its rail operations. Mr Bowker said that there were "no plans whatsoever" to give up the franchise, and that the company still believes its rail division will make a profit this year. Should it have to default on any of its franchise payments for the ECML, National Express could be asked to give up the East Anglia and c2c franchises too.

National Express's admission that it would have to go on a cost-cutting drive was met by anger by rail unions. "National Express has already made huge sums of money on the back of massive fares increases, public subsidy and overcrowding and its plans to cut jobs and pare services to the bone are an insult and a disgrace," said the RMT union's general secretary, Bob Crow.

Gerry Doherty, leader of the TSSA rail union, said: "National Express's cost-cutting plans will be self defeating and end in disaster. By axing jobs, closing dining cars, cutting ticket offices and rationing first-class passengers' biscuits and water, they will only drive passengers away."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ing-row-descends-into-food-fight-1633394.html

 

[Urobach]

They're no more expensive than the outlets in the stations themselves, which it seems to me are controlled by a monopoly or a cartel. All the receipts I ever get are from "Select Service Partner, Euston". Sounds like a price fix to me.

I used to work at a Pumplin Cafe in Colchester Railway Station, which was owned and run by Select Service Partner. They also ran the Cafe Ritazza and shop on the same station (and platform). They also run Upper Crust, Lemon Tree, Whistlestop, Pasty Shop, Burger King....you name it, pretty much everything on Railway Station is ran by them. The main exception I can think of is WHSmith.

We all get told to sell up, so if you buy food, we had to offer a coffee etc. That did my head in at the best of times, not least when the customer said "if I wanted it I would have asked for it"

They can charge that much for the convenience of being on the station, once you are throught the ticket barriers, there is nowhere else apart from the train.

 

[richa2002]

National Express are laughable. If this happens it will be an absolute disgrace.

 

[mrcheek]

If this is true, then whoever it was at DaFT that didnt make sure catering services were specified in the franchise agreement should be crucified!

But it may not be true. Catering may run at a loss, but that shouldnt be a problem. Catering should be a loss leader, as when people buy a ticket, many will expect to be able to get food on board. If they cant, then they may opt for another company to travel with, and this will be a boost for the services of Hull, East Midlands, Virgin, Cross Country and Great Central.

London to Inverness with no refreshments available?!?!?!?

 

[Failed Unit]

National Express, which operates the East Coast Main Line (ECML), is obliged to pay the Government £1.4bn for the right to run trains between London and Edinburgh until 2015, after winning the franchise at a time of economic growth and booming passenger numbers. Richard Bowker, its chief executive, told The Independent the company was now prepared to axe extra train services as well as snack trolleys and buffet cars after the Government made it clear it would force National Express to hand back the franchise rather than allow it to alter its agreement.

[ translate - announcement on buffet cars is in order to get a public backlash going to put pressure on the government to reconsider what they might have to pay in the next couple of years ]

I think customers will be pushing the government to remove nationalexpress rather than provide them with more money / reduce premium payments. The should look at how battles with first group went, it wasn't give first group a fair crack of the whip, it was first group out on Great Western coming from the travelling public

Mr Bowker said: "Everybody entered into these agreements in good faith in 2007 and there's been a major shock to the system in the meantime. Our catering service is a big loss maker that we keep because we think it is nice to have and part of the full-service philosophy, but that is something we would have to have a look at."

As I have said it is amazing how his opinions have changed from when he was head of the SRA, are the government not following his own policy to the letter?

Several analysts have raised concerns over the ECML franchise, which catered for 18 million passengers last year. It is thought that there has been a big fall in the number of passengers travelling first class – an important source of income on the commuter route.

Which makes me think any cutbacks to the catering will be counter productive. It loses 18bn revenue, NatEx should the cut it altogether need to think long and hard if they will lose 20bn revenue with lost customers if they cut back too much. I always take the train between London and Scotland, IF national express did all these cutbacks it would be Virgin or BA that would be getting my money and not them.

National Express's admission that it would have to go on a cost-cutting drive was met by anger by rail unions. "National Express has already made huge sums of money on the back of massive fares increases, public subsidy and overcrowding and its plans to cut jobs and pare services to the bone are an insult and a disgrace," said the RMT union's general secretary, Bob Crow.

Gerry Doherty, leader of the TSSA rail union, said: "National Express's cost-cutting plans will be self defeating and end in disaster. By axing jobs, closing dining cars, cutting ticket offices and rationing first-class passengers' biscuits and water, they will only drive passengers away."

Not often I agree with Bob Crow. The trouble is if they run the service down too much will a new operator be able to recover, Grand Central and Hull trains must be rubbing there hands at the moment.

I wonder if they will start charging standard class passengers for the wi-fi. I know a few people that used to be allowed to travel 1st and justified it with the "I can work with the wi-fi". Now it is free to all and with the more difficult enviroment they are back in standard.

 

[me123]

I hope this does not happen. If it does, I probably will never choose to travel NXEC and I'm likely to go down the WCML and cross over if needed. Going from Edinburgh-Lonodn is a long rail journey, and it's tiring. I for one appreciate a cup of tea, which is something you can't bring on the train, for a 4 hour journey. Sure, I can stock up before I board, but I don't want to have to carry lots of food around with me and, as I've already said, Tea and Coffee will not be available.

I can see Edinburgh passengers transferring to West Coast services and North Of Scotland passengers using Scotrail and West Coast where possible. Let's face it, even Scotrail will be offering catering!

 

[Failed Unit]

Does anyone know if the IEP will have kitchen space? I will see if I can find out myself and amend the post accordingly. I honestly don't think they will do it on London - Scotland the captive market is too big. First never planned on removing the buffets on London - Plymouth / Swansea either.

 

[Daimler]

If this does happen, I too will try to avoid NXEC if remotely possible. Catering isn't just 'nice to have', it's a necessity on long journeys - and I second what others have said about it turning passengers away from the railways. I can see this not turning people towards coaches, but rather (on the Edinburgh journeys) towards the airlines. The opposite of what NXEC is supposed to be trying to do.

I found this gem of a 'Bowkerism' over at Railway Eye http://railwayeye.blogspot.com

'We have had a very simple bidding philosophy. We will not bid at levels we think are unsustainable or undeliverable - there's no point in being a hero for a day and a villain forever more afterwards.' - said in August 2007

He's also now said that National Express is no longer liable for the £1.4 billion it's promised to pay for the franchise, as the deal was signed 'in a different economic climate' - again, I saw this on Railway Eye.

 

[maddeningcrowds]

Does anyone know if the IEP will have kitchen space?

The specification indicates it is essential for various catering options to be possible. I imagine this leaves a lot of felxibility later on to decide whether it will actually happen.

6.2.6 Catering
TS1630 It is an essential requirement that IEP trains shall be capable of providing a range of catering
services. It it expected that catering solutions shall be provided that are capable of providing
catering at four levels:
• Level 1 - Full restaurant service or at seat first class service with meals cooked on board
• Level 2 - Re-generated meals served at-seat
• Level 3 - Hot and cold snacks and drinks through a ‘Café-Bar’ style outlet.
• Level 4 - A trolley service.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/iep/iepinvitationtotender/ieptraintechnicalspecifi.pdf

 

[SqUaShIe P]

I think most of you are missing a huge point here.

National Express East Coast IS A BUSINESS.

The aim or any business is to make a profit.

Their purpose is to provide a train service, but out of that, they need to make a profit!

Yeah, its nice having catering facilities on-board, but if its losing money, then it should be taken away and it works both ways, If the on-board catering was making a huge profit, and every single passenger on-board was using it, Im sure they would expand it, to meet demands. And thats all it is, supply and demand.

Im sure if anyone of you had your own business, and a certain part of it was making a huge loss, would you not get rid of it?

So yeah, it might be an inconvenience to a small percentage of passengers, but that huge amount of money they were losing, can now be spent on something more cost effective.

Some of you just need to take a step back, come back down to the real world, and you will see that they are accually making a sensible decision.

Use your brains people

 

[me123]

But, seriously, on such a long journey catering is pretty much essential. It's OK for Peterborough-London passengers and the like, but Newcastle, York, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen to London is a long journey and passengers I'm sure would appreciate food.

Maybe the best option would be to axe one of the crew members when it comes to catering, leaving only a trolley or only a buffet. Saves you money instantly.

And, let's face it, catering isn't needed on the morning PBO-KGX train (I imagine commuters won't buy on-board drinks, although there'll probably be an outcry if they target just that one service). So why not target specific trains where catering is used the least and remove it entirely from those trains. No point having a trolley and a buffet when no-one wants to use them!

There's better ways of saving money. Axing a service that is used by so many is not the best way, so why don't they just selectively remove it, leaving it on services that need/demand it (ie, London-Newcastle and further North).

 

[SqUaShIe P]

But, seriously, on such a long journey catering is pretty much essential. It's OK for Peterborough-London passengers and the like, but Newcastle, York, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen to London is a long journey and passengers I'm sure would appreciate food.

Maybe the best option would be to axe one of the crew members when it comes to catering, leaving only a trolley or only a buffet. Saves you money instantly.

And, let's face it, catering isn't needed on the morning PBO-KGX train (I imagine commuters won't buy on-board drinks, although there'll probably be an outcry if they target just that one service). So why not target specific trains where catering is used the least and remove it entirely from those trains. No point having a trolley and a buffet when no-one wants to use them!

There's better ways of saving money. Axing a service that is used by so many is not the best way, so why don't they just selectively remove it, leaving it on services that need/demand it (ie, London-Newcastle and further North).

Fair point, but its alot easier having a standardised fleet, rather than having this train with catering, and this train without it and trying to marry them up to certain services.

They could just reduce the catering staff, but i assume the numbers still wouldnt add up...

I know what you mean though. Im not really a fan of no thrills travel, But its just a numbers game really. I would love for them to keep it how it is, but in todays economic climate, its just not phesable

 

[Daimler]

I think most of you are missing a huge point here.

National Express East Coast IS A BUSINESS.

The aim or any business is to make a profit.

Their purpose is to provide a train service, but out of that, they need to make a profit!

Yeah, its nice having catering facilities on-board, but if its losing money, then it should be taken away and it works both ways, If the on-board catering was making a huge profit, and every single passenger on-board was using it, Im sure they would expand it, to meet demands. And thats all it is, supply and demand.

Im sure if anyone of you had your own business, and a certain part of it was making a huge loss, would you not get rid of it?

So yeah, it might be an inconvenience to a small percentage of passengers, but that huge amount of money they were losing, can now be spent on something more cost effective.

Some of you just need to take a step back, come back down to the real world, and you will see that they are accually making a sensible decision.

Use your brains people

It's not really as simple as that, though, is it?

Think of those people travelling long-distance with NXEC. If they have an unpleasant experience owing to lack of food/drink available, this simply means they are less likely to travel with NXEC again - while catering might be a loss maker in its own right, the question that needs to be asked is how many people will be put off using their services full stop?

Of course, I may be misreading this entirely - maybe most people don't care. However, I doubt it - if you remember when FGW axed buffet cars for a while on some shorter distance services, it wasn't long before they were back again!

 

[SqUaShIe P]

It's not really as simple as that, though, is it?

Think of those people travelling long-distance with NXEC. If they have an unpleasant experience owing to lack of food/drink available, this simply means they are less likely to travel with NXEC again - while catering might be a loss maker in its own right, the question that needs to be asked is how many people will be put off using their services full stop?

Of course, I may be misreading this entirely - maybe most people don't care. However, I doubt it - if you remember when FGW axed buffet cars for a while on some shorter distance services, it wasn't long before they were back again!

I think there will be alot of people who do care about it and im sure it will put some people off using NXEC services, but as a company in these though times, i do think that it is nesesscary (how ever its spelt) to withdraw the service. For them, it could be the difference between having the franchise and not having it.

And just like FGW, I would guess that if enough people did want a return of the catering services, then NXEC would probably introduce a watered down, cost effective catering service. But thats Just a guess!

 

[Flyboy]

translate - announcement on buffet cars is in order to get a public backlash going to put pressure on the government to reconsider what they might have to pay in the next couple of years.

Absolutely spot on. The one thing that has struck me and probably millions of other people recently is the utter incompetence of many CEOs, and at times this incompetence is caused by a total detachment from the real world, I thank the current economic downturn for unveiling such idiots and placing them firmly in the spotlight.

It is obvious to me that Bowkers' comments regarding on-board catering (and several other recent announcements) are designed to have exactly the effect that Metrolands' 'translation' describes, but in the real world his comments only serve to damage his own Company. Of course a competent CEO would know this, but a 'primarily abstractive' one of course wouldn't.

 

[Polarbear]

BR always accepted that on board catering in itself was generally a loss leader. However, they also knew full well that it does add intrinsic value to rail travel itself.

For me, there are a few aspects to this. Firstly, I agree that the suggestion that on board catering could be scrapped altogether is indeed designed to provoke a backlash of some sort. Amongst the passengers using NXEC are several MP's who have kicked off previously when NXEC & even GNER proposed changes they didn't like.

Secondly, the point about Nat Ex being a business is of course true. However, we do seem to be in the midst of a generation of business executives that know the cost of everything & the value of nothing. Many business these days are essentially run by accountants, who do not know what happens at the coal face on a day to day basis. As long as profit is maximised, that's all that matters - sod the customer!

If all catering was to be withdrawn, I doubt short distance traffic of up to say 2 hours would be affected that much. Generally, there are excellent catering facilities in & around major stations these days, and people could bring their own refreshments onboard. People do this which is one major reason that on board catering is loss making in our "fast food" age.

I suspect that longer distance traffic would seek to get better value for money for their travel costs & look elsewhere if on board catering was no longer avaiable. I,for one would not like to be on a train for anything over 2 hours without access to hot drinks, (something you can't really do anything about when you are on the train).

Bowker isn't daft though - he knows full well that if this proposal were to be acted upon, people would indeed divert to other transport modes. Long distance coach travel maybe? Now which company runs the long distance coach network in the UK......???

 

[37401]

National Express East Coast IS A BUSINESS.

The aim or any business is to make a profit

Yes fair point but there main aim to to provide a SERVICE and to keep there passenger happy taking away catering is not going to give them happy passengers and they are taking away one aspect of there service.

 

[devon_metro]

As I posted elsewhere on another forum, if the service is degraded people will choose to fly which is probably cheaper and faster so no need to catering.

Then their business model will be trashed as nobody is using the trains!

Theres a simple solution, encourage more people to buy food on board the trains, not on the platforms. Whether that is by lowering prices or scrapping the Bite card for platform food and instead making it only apply to on board products...

 

[blacknight]

At present there is an ongoing e petition on No 10 website for safeguarding of catering on ECML need 200 signatures by April, hopefully this slip of the tongue by Mr Bowker will help with the response.
Link http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/NXECservice/

 

[The North Briton]

As a passenger commented the other day, 'what's the point of offering 20% off on board catering when there's hardly any food to buy?' Fair point. I travelled back on a midday weekend service recently and there was precisely eight sandwiches on board, four of which were on the buffet counter at ambient temperature. There were plenty of packets of crisps, but as these were in a bin liner on the floor of the buffet car, I declined.
If NXEC decide they want to do away with catering, things are moving in the 'right' direction.

 

[Waverley125]

never understood people who hated GNER-they were a first class company with great service & high aims. NXEC are absolute rubbish, and the DfT should seriously be looking at relieving them of their franchise.

Now, as it's the Daily Mail, and the first rule of tabloid journalism is 'simplify, then exaggerate' this could be about the loss of restaurant cars. However, it is true I look forward to Nigel Harris nailing them in his next editorial.

Hopefully Virgin can get the franchise at the next opportunity, since they bid with GNER last time, which will hopefully result in our getting nice blue & red liveried, fully staffed trains back.

Next time I go up to Leeds I'm going to try and go from Grantham, or if not, I'll do EMT/FHT/NR.

BOYCOTT NXEC!

 

[whoshotjimmi]

I think most of you are missing a huge point here.

National Express East Coast IS A BUSINESS.

The aim or any business is to make a profit.

Their purpose is to provide a train service, but out of that, they need to make a profit!

I'm pretty sure the article in question showed NXEC profits to be over £100m last year (down 26%). I'm also pretty sure that passenger numbers are up (albeit slightly). So where is the money going? And why is none of it able to go on catering?

This article has shown up a bit of hypocrisy on the forum. On another thread I stated that reducing service to passengers would force them onto other operators and modes of transport. At that time, my opinions and points were generally disregarded as folly. Suddenly, a statement by Bowker comes out and, as if by magic, everyone starts saying that NXEC are forcing their passengers elsewhere.

As a passenger who used to make regular trips from Leeds to London, I was always put off buying food on the train due to the unreasonably high prices. However, as I was only on the train for two and a bit hours, it wasn't really a problem for me. If I were to do an Edinburgh or further trip to London, I would be looking at buying food despite the price, possibly even treating myself to the restaurant. If I did use the buffet, I more often than not ended up standing in a queue in a tiny space for a very long time. I would hardly have called that wonderful to start with but at least it existed. However, I will admit that if you want people to spend money on board they require an incentive. Being trapped on board isn't a good enough reason on its' own. I also always checked flight prices to Heathrow. Sometimes the price was low enough to justify my buying a ticket. Even as a standard class passenger I got free breakfast, newspapers and drinks.

It sounds to me as though NXEC are making rail travel inconvenient for people. A successful rail service in my mind is one that would provide convenience for its passengers. Maybe losing catering on shorter routes will not be too bad for standard class customers. But on longer routes, it has to be a necessity. When travelling by car, one gets the option to stop at a service station. Is that available on the railway? No. First Class passengers will suffer most. They will now be paying so much money for what is basically nothing. NXEC will struggle to keep them and, as I have posted previously, will lose that money. £20m loss on catering? Just wait until First Class numbers have dwindled away to nothing.

What is even more grating, however; and something that is sure to annoy NXEC customers; is the childish pettyness with which NXEC are conducting themselves. Saying they will cut services and catering if they do not get any money from government or if other operators are granted access rights. Grow up! You are not Ryanair - who, by the way, stand to be among the main beneficiaries if passengers find other means of travel. When FGW passengers started complaining about the quality of service they were receiving, did they get a load of twaddle? No. FGW management listened and took many of their complaints on board to try to create the service the passengers wanted. It may not be perfect, but at least they show willing.

I have only used NXEC for one return trip since their inception. There was nothing especially wrong or right about it. However, this was long ago. Having listened to many posters' opinions, news items and such, my next trip to London will be with a different operator.

 

[Failed Unit]

I suppose they will not need to go much further than they have already in terms of catering. The Leeds route has only got a buffet now on most of trains after the savage January cutbacks. I agree the Leeds route probably could survive without catering as people can and will buy on the platform, but first class passengers will leave with the catering. The Edinburgh route does better. If they cut trains I guess the open access operators will be falling over themselves to take the paths. I am sure the cut of catering on the Leeds route is already having Grand Union rubbing their hands.

If they decide not to introduce the 5th path services again this is an extra path for open access operators to come along and use, offer a better service and National Express could soon be running a franchise with no passengers on it.

I really hope the government has learnt from its mistakes when national express ran Central trains and just takes the franchise off them ASAP if they start making cutbacks. Constantly bailing out CT just extended suffering on its customers.