English bus fare information to be made available as open data

[James H]

We've had a number of threads over the years about how difficult it is to establish the fare payable for a bus journey in advance of travel.

The Government has just announced the Bus Open Data Service which will be underpinned by new regulations which will mean bus operators are legally required to provide route and timetable data by the end of 2020 and fare, ticket and location data by 2021.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...nute-as-big-data-revitalises-countrys-bus-use

The government will work with technology companies, app developers and information providers to ensure a range of innovative products are designed to make the most of the data and help all bus users make informed choices.

Full data on fares and locations will be available from January 2021, by which point it is expected that a range of apps will be on the market, allowing passengers to manage their journeys from start to finish from their smartphones.

A welcome and overdue move IMHO

 

[radamfi]

Why do we have to still have to wait even longer? Why not 5 or 10 years ago? There's no reason why any company that updates its website with new times can't display the fares at the same time. Companies that don't show fares on their website don't deserve patronage. An app showing times from start to finish also needs to work out the fare from start to finish, not merely add up numbers from the individual routes. Other countries have managed to show fares for a complete journey on apps for many years.

 

[carlberry]

We've had a number of threads over the years about how difficult it is to establish the fare payable for a bus journey in advance of travel.

The Government has just announced the Bus Open Data Service which will be underpinned by new regulations which will mean bus operators are legally required to provide route and timetable data by the end of 2020 and fare, ticket and location data by 2021.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...nute-as-big-data-revitalises-countrys-bus-use



A welcome and overdue move IMHO

Times and routes have been available via open data (in England, Scotland and Wales) for many years so I'm unsure what extra is available in 2020. Even location data is mostly available already (see bustimes.org) so this appears to be an announcement about something that already exists. The 'Express lanes for buses' idea was something that happened in the 1960s and would have been expanded if it wasn't for the number of councils that don't like the idea of allocating road space for use by poor people who can afford to use a car. The West Midlands being one council that's removed a bus lane because the car drivers didn't like buses passing them in it all the time!

 

[James H]

this appears to be an announcement about something that already exists

Indeed, which is why I focused this thread on the publication of fares data, which seems to be the main substantive change.

 

[carlberry]

Indeed, which is why I focused this thread on the publication of fares data, which seems to be the main substantive change.

Indeed, operators that today don't bother to operate journeys, display destination information or provide vehicles complying to the relevant legislation will all suddenly provide updated information about their services and fares via a standard data format available at any time.
I suspect the only outcome of this will be the ending of the government/local authority funding for the Traveline websites and data flows because of the above miracle.

 

[Contains Nuts]

Currently timetable information is provided by local authorities and PTE’s through the Traveline National Dataset (TNDS) which is not legally required but is done by all LA’s as part of the Traveline scheme.

The Bus Open Data Service (BODS) moves the onus onto the operator to provide the information and it must be done in the form of a TransXChange (TXC) file which allows local authorities, DFT and anyone who wishes to use the data (app developers, etc.) to see the data presented in a uniform standard.

Most small operators do not have the ability to create TXC files so the DFT are producing an Excel tool, but larger operators can produce TXC exports from scheduling or ticketing systems. The actual process of providing the timetable data is fairly simple as it only requires a file being uploaded.

Local authorities will still be responsible for managing data relating to roadside infrastructure, which will then be provided to operators via the DFT’s NaPTAN database to allow operators to create their data.

Fare and ticket information is very complicated as there is no uniform standard to present the information. It is likely that a standard called NeTEx will be used which has been developed for other European countries and is an advanced version of TransXChange which can handle significantly more complicated data. This still needs a lot of input from ticketing system suppliers before operators are able to present the data in a way that is usable to any third party.

The provision of real time tracking data is quite simple as long as the operator has a modern ticketing system, although it may require quite a lot of work to ensure that the data is able to provide details of which service and journey a bus is on as well as the actual location.

 

[transmanche]

An app showing times from start to finish also needs to work out the fare from start to finish, not merely add up numbers from the individual routes. Other countries have managed to show fares for a complete journey on apps for many years.

Some apps already do that, where the information is available. Which only seems to be London at the moment.

I use the Moovit app, and (in London) it shows the correct fare for the complete journey. In this example for a journey from Muswell Hill to North Harrow it shows a mixed-mode journey via Z1, a mixed-mode journey that isn't via Z1 and a bus-only journey that qualifies for the 'hopper' fare.


Image shows a screenshot from the Moovit app.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Some apps already do that, where the information is available. Which only seems to be London at the moment.

I use the Moovit app, and (in London) it shows the correct fare for the complete journey. In this example for a journey from Muswell Hill to North Harrow it shows a mixed-mode journey via Z1, a mixed-mode journey that isn't via Z1 and a bus-only journey that qualifies for the 'hopper' fare.

View attachment 72145
Image shows a screenshot from the Moovit app.

Then again, London's fare system is much simpler than outside London. There are some Oyster oddities, but for most journeys within the zones, the fare is extremely predictable.

Outside of London, things can be horribly complex. Some areas have great value multi-operator tickets, others don't. Some tickets have different prices depending on who you buy from, and how you are delivered the ticket. Some operators don't offer returns and just have day tickets, whilst some don't seem to have day tickets and just do returns! And this is assuming you're an adult, child fares can be even less predictable (especially for those aged around 16-17)!

To illustrate my point, try and plan a journey on the Stagecoach website from Blaenavon to Bristol*, or Kidlington to Northampton. In both cases, even Stagecoach can't tell you the fare. Their website is basically the gold standard in fare information, and whilst it's good, there are a huge number of journeys where it simply struggles to deal with all the fare rules. I'd be happy with single and return information. At a push, I'd appreciate information on any day tickets which cover the journey I'm inquiring about.

* I should note, English fare data won't really solve this. I'll be interested to see how cross border routes are handled, both into Wales and Scotland.

 

[radamfi]

Outside of London, things can be horribly complex.

So operators need to fix their obsession with unnecessarily complicated stage based fares. In other countries it can be as simple as working out how many zones crossed, or measuring the distance travelled.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Then again, London's fare system is much simpler than outside London. There are some Oyster oddities, but for most journeys within the zones, the fare is extremely predictable.

Outside of London, things can be horribly complex. Some areas have great value multi-operator tickets, others don't. Some tickets have different prices depending on who you buy from, and how you are delivered the ticket. Some operators don't offer returns and just have day tickets, whilst some don't seem to have day tickets and just do returns! And this is assuming you're an adult, child fares can be even less predictable (especially for those aged around 16-17)!

To illustrate my point, try and plan a journey on the Stagecoach website from Blaenavon to Bristol*, or Kidlington to Northampton. In both cases, even Stagecoach can't tell you the fare. Their website is basically the gold standard in fare information, and whilst it's good, there are a huge number of journeys where it simply struggles to deal with all the fare rules. I'd be happy with single and return information. At a push, I'd appreciate information on any day tickets which cover the journey I'm inquiring about.

* I should note, English fare data won't really solve this. I'll be interested to see how cross border routes are handled, both into Wales and Scotland.

You've picked two really knotty examples there as they flip over the Stagecoach opco boundaries.

 

[MedwayValiant]

So operators need to fix their obsession with unnecessarily complicated stage based fares. In other countries it can be as simple as working out how many zones crossed, or measuring the distance travelled.

But that system wasn't invented here, so it's communist, it's rubbish, it doesn't work, and there will be one hundred other reasons why it can't possibly be used.

More seriously, if any operator did ever decide to simplify its fares system into hexagonal zones, we can be fairly sure that it would do so by levelling up rather than down - and you might find that a journey of one stop cost £5 if that half mile journey happened to cross a zone boundary.

x pence per mile seems attractive, but do you then have asynchronous fares on routes which are longer in one direction than the other because of one way systems? (Are asynchronous fares actually allowed at the moment? A slightly eccentric driver once told me about his cunning plan for a route which went up a steep hill to charge higher fares uphill than downhill, since there were regular passengers who walked down but took the bus up. His employer didn't adopt the idea.)

Most routes currently have fares which work out at less pence per mile the longer the journey, so when the operator has to decide between making short journeys cheaper or making longer journeys more expensive, which is it going to do? Probably not the former.

 

[radamfi]

More seriously, if any operator did ever decide to simplify its fares system into hexagonal zones, we can be fairly sure that it would do so by levelling up rather than down - and you might find that a journey of one stop cost £5 if that half mile journey happened to cross a zone boundary.

The odd thing is, British buses have massively simplified their fares compared to pre-deregulation so on a typical town service you may well only have two or three fares, so operators are less scared of "cliff-edge" fares compared to the past. It also means that changing to a zonal system wouldn't make that much difference. Some places with zonal but relatively high fares use the "kurzstrecke" system where you pay a low fare for a journey up to a set number of stops.

x pence per mile seems attractive, but do you then have asynchronous fares on routes which are longer in one direction than the other because of one way systems? (Are asynchronous fares actually allowed at the moment? A slightly eccentric driver once told me about his cunning plan for a route which went up a steep hill to charge higher fares uphill than downhill, since there were regular passengers who walked down but took the bus up. His employer didn't adopt the idea.)

Yes, that can happen. For example, trams to Amsterdam Centraal station go in a loop so the distance to the next stop is quite different depending on the direction. Similarly, bus stops are not exactly opposite each other. Whilst this isn't really that big a deal as the price difference by direction is generally only a few cents, it relies on having touch in touch out network-wide so it isn't really applicable in many places. As far as I know, only the Netherlands has this system, with most other places preferring flat fares or zonal fares. Denmark introduced nationwide touch in touch out some years later but stuck to using zones.

Zonal fares are primarily required to keep boarding times acceptably low and ticketing simple. However, with the latest technology as used in Switzerland, zonal fares may no longer be necessary as you simply "check in" on your phone when entering the first bus/tram/boat/train and "check out" at the end of the journey. Checking in or out is not necessary on intermediate vehicles, only on the first and last vehicles. You then get billed at the end of the day for all the trips you made that day, including capping to any relevant day ticket prices. If this sort of thing becomes standard then they may decide to change to a more distance based fare structure as it will no longer be necessary to have zones for simplicity.

https://www.sbb.ch/en/timetable/mobile-apps/sbb-mobile/easyride.html

Would you like to travel by public transport without having to worry about tickets – just get on and go? Without even having to decide where you are going beforehand? That is all quite simple with EasyRide. Because you check in with a swipe before your journey and check out again with a swipe afterwards. And at the end of the day, EasyRide calculates the lowest price.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Given that it is already a legal requirement for every bus service to have available a fare table for passengers to view, that operators simply ignore the requirement (you can always ask the driver and look at his ticket machine!), and no-one enforces the requirement, why should this initiative be any different?

Operators will simply offer the day ticket price as the standard fare with a comment that 'some single journeys may be cheaper, ask for details'.

There are some good operators out there, but, as I am sure has been dicussed many times, operators seem scared to tell people just how expensive their products are for occasional users.

As an aside, when was the last time you saw a 'clearly displayed price list' in a pub? Also a legal requirement!

 

[transmanche]

More seriously, if any operator did ever decide to simplify its fares system into hexagonal zones, we can be fairly sure that it would do so by levelling up rather than down - and you might find that a journey of one stop cost £5 if that half mile journey happened to cross a zone boundary.

Some places with zonal but relatively high fares use the "kurzstrecke" system where you pay a low fare for a journey up to a set number of stops.

That's exactly what Tyne & Wear used to have, on buses, Metro and ferry. There were nine fares coded 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and A, B, C, D.

1 was a one-zone fare etc, with 5 being for five-or-more-zones. The lettered fares were for short distance journeys with (I think) A being for one fare-stage, B two fare-stages and so on. So, if you made a short distance journey across a zone boundary, you didn't have to pay a 2-zone fare.

In the ticket machine photo below, you can just about make out that the fare from Haymarket to Jesmond is an A fare (both stations are in zone 26). The next station is West Jesmond which is a C fare, even though the journey crosses a zone boundary. Haymarket to South Gosforth is a D fare, but from Haymarket to Longbenton is a 2 fare (West Jesmond, South Gosforth and Longbenton are all in zone 17).


Images show a) a zonal map of Tyne & Wear, showing the original (1979) zones and b) a photo of a person buying a ticket from a machine at Haymarket at about the time the first stage of the Metro opened in 1980.