Extremely high ticket prices on London to Glasgow trains.

[thaitransit]

I was trying to search for some 1st class train tickets for London to Glasgow and return in late November. The cheapest I could find was 263 pounds or AUD$475. with Avanti West Coast. This is an extremely high price for what I assume is day train only.

To put this in perspective I could travel on an overnight sleeper train in 1st class with full on train dining from Brisbane to Longreach for only $420 a distance of 1500km! or a full business class flight from Brisbane to Cairns for $400 a flight of 2 hours and 30 minutes!

That train journey seems so expensive for a daylight regional long distance train! have I got it wrong? is it an overnight train? or luxury train that I have found?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The operator is having staffing issues, so cheaper tickets aren't available.

If you're coming from Australia, you may find an EURail or Britrail pass to be better value.

 

[miklcct]

I was trying to search for some 1st class train tickets for London to Glasgow and return in late November. The cheapest I could find was 263 pounds or AUD$475. with Avanti West Coast. This is an extremely high price for what I assume is day train only.

To put this in perspective I could travel on an overnight sleeper train in 1st class with full on train dining from Brisbane to Longreach for only $420 a distance of 1500km! or a full business class flight from Brisbane to Cairns for $400 a flight of 2 hours and 30 minutes!

That train journey seems so expensive for a daylight regional long distance train! have I got it wrong? is it an overnight train? or luxury train that I have found?

Yes, you are correct. It is a luxury long distance high speed (not regional) train in first class at the walk up price.

You should check again closer to the date, or try travelling on alternative routes, such as via Edinburgh.

 

[plugwash]

Full price "anytime" tickets for intercity journeys are very expensive in the UK. Off-peak tickets tend to be more reasonable but on many routes off-peak first class tickets don't exist. Advance fares are a bit cheaper than the flexible fares but with the flexible tickets so expensive there is probablly little motivation to make them super-cheap.

However your profile lists your location as Australia, if you are indeed resident outside the UK thena britrail pass is a much cheaper option. https://shop.britrail.net/ quotes prices of $214 USD for a 2 consecutive day pass or $266 for two days within one month.

 

[30907]

I was trying to search for some 1st class train tickets for London to Glasgow and return in late November. The cheapest I could find was 263 pounds or AUD$475. with Avanti West Coast. This is an extremely high price for what I assume is day train only.

That is the flexible walk-up one-way fare.
On a random midweek date at the end of November fares start at £112, valid on a specific train only.
If you were looking at weekend travel, then only flexible fares are available if timetables have not been fixed - it is UK practice not to issue train-specific tickets until this is done.

And yes, UK walk-up one-way tickets at peak times are expensive: even my 10-mile local trip to Leeds would cost £4.80 in standard class.

That train journey seems so expensive for a daylight regional long distance train! have I got it wrong? is it an overnight train? or luxury train that I have found?

In the UK context, calling a train to Scotland a regional service is unwise

 

[thaitransit]

In the UK context, calling a train to Scotland a regional service is unwise

I am assuming a train similar to the Rockhampton Tilt Train in Queensland. Rather than premium overnight long distance train. Glasgow seems to be under 6 hours ex London. That makes it similar to Brisbane to Gladstone or about 550km.

is the Glasgow train a premium service?

 

[miklcct]

I am assuming a train similar to the Rockhampton Tilt Train in Queensland. Rather than premium overnight long distance train. Glasgow seems to be under 6 hours ex London. That makes it similar to Brisbane to Gladstone or about 550km.

is the Glasgow train a premium service?

Yes. First class is a premium service by definition. You should take a look at the standard class price instead.

 

[Birmingham]

is the Glasgow train a premium service?

It’s only as premium as any other service operated by the same company, such as London to Birmingham (1h 20m, 180 km) or London to Manchester (2h, 300 km). For comparison’s sake, Glasgow is about 4h 30m and 640 km.

The quality of an intercity train service in the UK is moreso determined by class of travel, of which there are three with Avanti West Coast: Standard Class, Standard Premium (First Class seat but no inclusive catering), and First Class (sit-down meal served to your seat).

 

[thaitransit]

It’s only as premium as any other service operated by the same company, such as London to Birmingham (1h 20m, 180 km) or London to Manchester (2h, 300 km). For comparison’s sake, Glasgow is about 4h 30m and 640 km.

The quality of an intercity train service in the UK is moreso determined by class of travel, of which there are three with Avanti West Coast: Standard Class, Standard Premium (First Class seat but no inclusive catering), and First Class (sit-down meal served to your seat).

First class seems equivalent of business class on Queensland Rail tilt trains. Given that business class seats are the only ones that give me enough space to sit comfortably without annoying the person next to me. I will have to go first class.

As for the regional trains thing. I assume all trains that service regional cities and rural towns outside of London are considered regional long distance trains with compulsory seat reservations and on train dining of some type. In otherwords Glasgow is regional city as its outside of London.

This is based on how it works in Queensland where everything outside of greater Brisbane is classed as regional eg Rockhampton or Townsville etc.

 

[XAM2175]

is the Glasgow train a premium service?

It appears expensive because the operator is not currently offering the fixed-journey tickets, only fully-flexible ones.

For comparison: you are booking a flight with Qantas and only being shown the Flex fares, not the Red e-Deals:

As for the regional trains thing. I assume all trains that service regional cities and rural towns outside of London are considered regional long distance trains with compulsory seat reservations and on train dining of some type. In otherwords Glasgow is regional city as its outside of London.

This is based on how it works in Queensland where everything outside of greater Brisbane is classed as regional eg Rockhampton or Townsville etc.

You are wrong. Very few British operators and routes can be compared to QR Traveltrain, and you have been told this before.

 

[AlterEgo]

First class seems equivalent of business class on Queensland Rail tilt trains. Given that business class seats are the only ones that give me enough space to sit comfortably without annoying the person next to me. I will have to go first class.

As for the regional trains thing. I assume all trains that service regional cities and rural towns outside of London are considered regional long distance trains with compulsory seat reservations and on train dining of some type. In otherwords Glasgow is regional city as its outside of London.

This is based on how it works in Queensland where everything outside of greater Brisbane is classed as regional eg Rockhampton or Townsville etc.

Australia is extremely large and sparse and has a unique taxonomy for distance.

London to Glasgow isn’t a regional service in the UK and these kinds of distances are normally termed, and priced, as intercity services in Europe.

I’d avoid Avanti and their prices for the reason stated upthread - they’re having staff problems and have severely reduced capacity (plus also they’re plain greedy).

LNER to Edinburgh and Scotrail across to Edinburgh to there will be cheaper and frankly more pleasant.

 

[trainfan007]

I was trying to search for some 1st class train tickets for London to Glasgow and return in late November. The cheapest I could find was 263 pounds or AUD$475. with Avanti West Coast. This is an extremely high price for what I assume is day train only.

To put this in perspective I could travel on an overnight sleeper train in 1st class with full on train dining from Brisbane to Longreach for only $420 a distance of 1500km! or a full business class flight from Brisbane to Cairns for $400 a flight of 2 hours and 30 minutes!

That train journey seems so expensive for a daylight regional long distance train! have I got it wrong? is it an overnight train? or luxury train that I have found?Trai

Trains in genreal in the UK are extremely expenisve and overpriced for the service that you get. Avanti themsleves are having issues running a good tand frequent timetable mening that train that you get on will probably be more packed and so Avanti will try to cash in and make it more expensive. I have never been in Avanti first class, so I won't comment on that. LNER first class is really good and they go to Edinburgh and then it is about an 1 hour train ride on Scotrail that's below the price you paid.

 

[nanstallon]

Trains in genreal in the UK are extremely expenisve and overpriced for the service that you get. Avanti themsleves are having issues running a good tand frequent timetable mening that train that you get on will probably be more packed and so Avanti will try to cash in and make it more expensive. I have never been in Avanti first class, so I won't comment on that. LNER first class is really good and they go to Edinburgh and then it is about an 1 hour train ride on Scotrail that's below the price you paid.

Welcome to Rip-off Britain.

 

[trainfan007]

Welcome to Rip-off Britain.

You can find some pretty good bargains if you know where to look.

 

[miklcct]

You can find some pretty good bargains if you know where to look.

Yes - so Britain has one of the most unfair fare structure in the world. Getting good bargain requires the use of split ticketing (through ticket being more expensive than sum of components) and hidden city ticketing (long distance ticket cheaper than short distance ticket).

In contrast, in Hungary, rail fares are strictly distance-based with supplements needed for premium trains. So no one there is going to be ripped off.

 

[JonathanH]

In contrast, in Hungary, rail fares are strictly distance-based with supplements needed for premium trains. So no one there is going to be ripped off.

Do they measure distance using straight lines or the actual route miles. If the latter I would feel rather ripped off if my journey was on a twisty line. I might also feel ripped off if there isn't some form of adjustment for relative journey time.

 

[The exile]

Do they measure distance using straight lines or the actual route miles. If the latter I would feel rather ripped off if my journey was on a twisty line. I might also feel ripped off if there isn't some form of adjustment for relative journey time.

And with no disrespect to the Hungarian railway system, you’re comparing chalk with cheese (and from the perspective of a UK income!)

 

[skyhigh]

In contrast, in Hungary, rail fares are strictly distance-based with supplements needed for premium trains. So no one there is going to be ripped off.

Yet again, you are comparing two completely different animals. On a milage basis, how would you price an Any Permitted York to Burley Park return? Or Any Permitted Leeds to Manchester? Would you charge more for the slower route as it goes a longer distance?

 

[miklcct]

Yet again, you are comparing two completely different animals. On a milage basis, how would you price an Any Permitted York to Burley Park return? Or Any Permitted Leeds to Manchester? Would you charge more for the slower route as it goes a longer distance?

There will be no return tickets and all tickets will be route restricted, with the fast train being a premium train in its own category. Therefore the cheapest fare, as in their system, is a combination of local stopping trains using the most direct route.

 

[route101]

Less services serving Glasgow x1 per hour. I overheard a couple today saying they paid £350 odd for their return to London. It seems either the lower advances tiers sell out very quickly or they just release the more expensive ones.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, you are correct. It is a luxury long distance high speed (not regional) train in first class at the walk up price.

You should check again closer to the date, or try travelling on alternative routes, such as via Edinburgh.

Avanti 1st is good but I'd not call it luxury.

First class seems equivalent of business class on Queensland Rail tilt trains. Given that business class seats are the only ones that give me enough space to sit comfortably without annoying the person next to me. I will have to go first class.

As for the regional trains thing. I assume all trains that service regional cities and rural towns outside of London are considered regional long distance trains with compulsory seat reservations and on train dining of some type. In otherwords Glasgow is regional city as its outside of London.

This is based on how it works in Queensland where everything outside of greater Brisbane is classed as regional eg Rockhampton or Townsville etc.

There is no formal term "regional train" in the UK but to most it means a local train of some kind, which Avanti is not.

 

[reb0118]

In otherwords Glasgow is regional city as its outside of London.

No, Glasgow, aka the second city, is a regional city because it is outside of Edinburgh.

 

[greyman42]

The quality of an intercity train service in the UK is moreso determined by class of travel, of which there are three with Avanti West Coast: Standard Class, Standard Premium (First Class seat but no inclusive catering), and First Class (sit-down meal served to your seat).

Regarding the meal served at your seat; don't expect anything substantial that has been cooked by a chef.

 

[Parjon]

Calling any scheduled train service in the UK "luxury" is definitely not accurate. Even first class is very basic. The main differentiator for first class is much lower chance of having to stand, more legroom and space, and usually a quieter experience.

And it certainly isn't worth paying over £400 for!!

To the OP: save yourself a packet, disappointment and probably aggravation.

Book a couple of advance tickets from Edinburgh to London with LNER, and get a £20 off-peak return to Edinburgh from Glasgow.
Avanti are so unreliable at the moment is entirely possible it won't even take longer.

 

[miklcct]

Calling any scheduled train service in the UK "luxury" is definitely not accurate. Even first class is very basic. The main differentiator for first class is much lower chance of having to stand, more legroom and space, and usually a quieter experience.

There are a few train services where I won't describe their first class offering as luxury. These services won't worth it in first class.

Examples include Southern and Southeastern. The latter will be done in this December as very few people are actually paying for this substandard service.

The long distance TOCs still have a decent first class offering which people are willing to pay for, for example, 2+1 seating and inclusive meals, which don't happen in Southern and Southeastern. I will describe these as luxury service which attracts premium customers.

In my opinion, a long distance train should have 2+2 airline-style seating in standard class, while a suburban train should have mainly longitudinal seating and wide gangway in standard class. The 444 is the best long distance train I have travelled on, while the 345 is the best suburban train.

Anything beyond the standard I get on a 444 is considered a luxury to me.

 

[MikeWh]

In my opinion, a long distance train should have 2+2 airline-style seating in standard class, while a suburban train should have mainly longitudinal seating and wide gangway in standard class. The 444 is the best long distance train I have travelled on, while the 345 is the best suburban train.

Can't agree with this. As a member of a family I'd much prefer table seating with 4 seats. And longitudinal seating is a no-no for me. It's tollerable on the Underground in tunnels, but I like to look out of the window.

 

[Watershed]

Calling any scheduled train service in the UK "luxury" is definitely not accurate. Even first class is very basic. The main differentiator for first class is much lower chance of having to stand, more legroom and space, and usually a quieter experience.

I really couldn't agree with this. Whilst First Class on some of the south-east operators is clearly a waste of money (essentially just existing to guarantee a seat during peak times), on long distance services it is generally quite a bit more comfortable and is comparable to what you would find in First Class abroad or on short to medium haul flights.

Catering is where it's actually a step above, as whilst you generally have to pay for all refreshments on trains abroad (even in First), you do get a reasonable offer of complimentary stuff on most long distance operators. It's not restaurant quality stuff by any stretch of the imagination (other than on the GWR and TfW Pullman services), but nor is it "very basic".

The key issue is that First Class travel is priced at an extortionate rate for most walk-up fares, whilst the availability of cheaper Advances is very hit and miss.

 

[neilmc]

Yes - so Britain has one of the most unfair fare structure in the world. Getting good bargain requires the use of split ticketing (through ticket being more expensive than sum of components) and hidden city ticketing (long distance ticket cheaper than short distance ticket).

In contrast, in Hungary, rail fares are strictly distance-based with supplements needed for premium trains. So no one there is going to be ripped off.

View attachment 122849

Hungary's rail network is brilliant. Yes you will pay a supplement for premium trains but it's only an additional fraction of the basic mileage fare, not five or ten times the cheapest rate like we have in rip-off Britain. And saying that there are cheap fares "if you know where to look for them" is pathetic, they should be there in plain sight for any passenger to obtain without splitting tickets, using obscure easements and loopholes, many of which professional railwaymen (if there are any longer such people) haven't a clue about. A "mileage system plus" would get rid of all this. Though you have to use the route that the mileage has been worked out on, of course, we fell foul of this once when we were mistakenly issued with a ticket for a sparsely-served route rather than the most frequent, of course when we were "gripped" there was no extortionate PF to pay, nasty threatening letters from paid agencies or court appearances, we just put our hands in our pockets and paid a pound or so more for the difference.

Now obviously Hungary is a cheaper place to live than the UK and wages are lower but the fares are way lower as a proportion of income; for example food or a hotel room is probably half the price of the UK, but a long distance(ish) train from Budapest to the sticks cost less than £10, I got a ten-mile local journey for 50p and a thirty-mile local journey to a bird reserve for £1.50 - cheap day out! Some of the rural trains are a bit antiquated and weird, such as a single carriage being pulled by a huge diesel of the same length, but there are some very swish modern trains around.

Basically I'd recommend Hungarian rail travel to anyone, but I'd be embarrassed for anyone overseas to come to the UK and take a chance on our rail network. I read a summary of transport from airports to city centres issued by a budget airline and it was an embarrassing expose once I looked at Gatwick and Stansted!

 

[Parjon]

on long distance services it is generally quite a bit more comfortable and is comparable to what you would find in First Class abroad or on short to medium haul flights.

Sorry to hear you've had such poor first class flight experiences!!

I'm sure everyone would agree that the Orient Express (or the Ghan, which the OP may be familiar with) would be classed a luxury train journey experience.

Luxury isn't defined by being better than a low bar, or so-so offerings versus none at all. Luxury is attentive, personal service. Fine dining. Managed environment. In short, perhaps something you'd consider paying £400 for a few hours of.

Neither Avanti nor LNER are the Orient express. The OP paying a small premium for LNER may be worth it, but it would be remiss to use the luxury term and in turn infer that it might be worth the OP forking out several hundreds for it (much less Avanti!!)

 

[181]

The key issue is that First Class travel is priced at an extortionate rate for most walk-up fares, whilst the availability of cheaper Advances is very hit and miss.

If you're travelling at a weekend or Bank Holiday with an off-peak (i.e. mid-priced) Standard Class ticket, many inter-city operators offer Weekend First at a comparatively (compared with a walk-up First Class ticket) modest supplement, which can be paid on board. There may be less food or drink than during the week, though. I don't think this is available if your Standard Class ticket is an Advance.