Failing to buy a ticket at interchange station - fictional scenario

[TurbostarFan]

Firstly I will stress that this is a fictional scenario and not a request for advice, legal or otherwise.

I board a train at an unstaffed station with a sign permitting journeys to be started without a ticket e.g. Wymondham (WMD) to another station which is staffed e.g. Norwich (NRW) where I change onto another train to a staffed station e.g. London Liverpool Street (LST) which is also staffed and has ticket barriers. There was no guard available to sell tickets on the first train due to a technical issue with their machine but I did have sufficient time to purchase my ticket at Norwich station. The guard on the second train didn't bother carrying out a check and no RPO was on board. On arrival at LST I explain my situation to a member of gateline staff who calls for assistance from an RPO. What can they do?

1) Escort me out of the station and take no further action.
2) Take my details, issue a PF and/or UFN and then escort me out of the station.
3) Take my details, report for summons and then escort me out of the station.
4) Something else in addition to or in lieu of the above.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are unlikely to do the "escorting out" part of (1). They may decide to take no action and allow you through to leave the station of your own accord (or indeed remain in it if you so wish) but this is infinitessimally unlikely as there is no reason I can think of why they would decline to take payment for your journey in any form.

(2) or (3) are entirely possible and fairly likely, again without escorting you out of the station, I couldn't say which was more likely, unless it's not a PF area in which case (3) rather than (2).

Also possible that they will sell you a ticket, or that (3) just results in a UFN for the fare rather than any extra. But I think this too is less likely, certainly once it was established that you had time to purchase a ticket at Norwich.

 

[TurbostarFan]

They are unlikely to do the "escorting out" part of (1). They may decide to take no action and allow you through to leave the station of your own accord (or indeed remain in it if you so wish) but this is infinitessimally unlikely as there is no reason I can think of why they would decline to take payment for your journey in any form.

(2) or (3) are entirely possible and fairly likely, again without escorting you out of the station, I couldn't say which was more likely, unless it's not a PF area in which case (3) rather than (2).

Also possible that they will sell you a ticket, or that (3) just results in a UFN for the fare rather than any extra. But I think this too is less likely, certainly once it was established that you had time to purchase a ticket at Norwich.

Scenario edited to reflect that, it's just that I thought that a UFN wouldn't be issued! All passenger trains between Norwich and LST are penalty fare trains and all stations on that line are penalty fare stations. However Wymondham is not a penalty fare station and the trains to Norwich are paytrains, not penalty fare trains. Therefore I would imagine that in theory an RPO could issue a UFN for that part of the journey in addition to a PF for the journey between Norwich and LST although this is unlikely to happen in practice!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Scenario edited to reflect that, it's just that I thought that a UFN wouldn't happen! All passenger trains between Norwich and LST are penalty fare trains and all stations on that line are penalty fare stations. However Wymondham is not a penalty fare station and the trains to Norwich are paytrains, not penalty fare trains. Therefore I would imagine that in theory an RPO could issue a UFN for that part of the journey in addition to a PF for the journey between Norwich and LST although this is unlikely to happen in practice!

Yes, I suppose they could do that. Or issue an UFN for the whole thing i.e. option 3.

 

[TurbostarFan]

Yes, I suppose they could do that. Or issue an UFN for the whole thing i.e. option 3.

Indeed they could but I suspect that would unlikely and they would be more likely to issue a PF instead for the Norwich to LST part of the journey and just ignore the bit between Wymondham and Norwich on the basis that had I bought a ticket from Wymondham to London Terminals (via Norwich) then it would not have cost any more than a ticket from Norwich to London Terminals.

 

[yorkie]

Firstly I will stress that this is a fictional scenario and not a request for advice, legal or otherwise.

I board a train at an unstaffed station with a sign permitting journeys to be started without a ticket e.g. Wymondham (WMD) to another station which is staffed e.g. Norwich (NRW) where I change onto another train to a staffed station e.g. London Liverpool Street (LST) which is also staffed and has ticket barriers. There was no guard available to sell tickets on the first train due to a technical issue with their machine but I did have sufficient time to purchase my ticket at Norwich station. The guard on the second train didn't bother carrying out a check and no RPO was on board. On arrival at LST I explain my situation to a member of gateline staff who calls for assistance from an RPO. What can they do?

If there was no time to purchase a ticket without missing a train, you'd be doing nothing wrong and should be sold the appropriate and (where applicable) discounted fare.

But if you chose not to purchase a ticket at the interchange station, even though you had time to do so, then you have failed to purchase at ticket at the first opportunity. This means you are liable to pay the full fare without any discounts or potentially be prosecuted.

1) Escort me out of the station and take no further action.

I don't see why they would do this.

2) Take my details, issue a PF and/or UFN and then escort me out of the station.

I do not think a PF would be legitimate as you started your journey at a non-PF station.

If you had the ability to pay the fare, why would they issue an unpaid fare notice? To ask this question demonstrates that I am not sure you know what a UFN is, or why one might be issued. It sounds like you know a UFN is something that exists but misunderstand why one may be issued.

3) Take my details, report for summons and then escort me out of the station.

Yes they could take your details and investigate the matter for prosecution. You could be asked why you chose not to purchase a ticket when you admit you had an opportunity to do so.

4) Something else in addition to or in lieu of the above.

They might sell you a ticket; this could be the full fare without any discounts.

 

[furlong]

I do not think a PF would be legitimate as you started your journey at a non-PF station.

It would if the passenger boarded the second train at a station from which PFs apply and the station had the requisite notices in place (so that they would have seen one when changing train) and they had time to buy a ticket there etc.

 

[TurbostarFan]

If there was no time to purchase a ticket without missing a train, you'd be doing nothing wrong and should be sold the appropriate and (where applicable) discounted fare.

But if you chose not to purchase a ticket at the interchange station, even though you had time to do so, then you have failed to purchase at ticket at the first opportunity. This means you are liable to pay the full fare without any discounts or potentially be prosecuted.

I don't see why they would do this.

I do not think a PF would be legitimate as you started your journey at a non-PF station.

If you had the ability to pay the fare, why would they issue an unpaid fare notice? To ask this question demonstrates that I am not sure you know what a UFN is, or why one might be issued. It sounds like you know a UFN is something that exists but misunderstand why one may be issued.

Yes they could take your details and investigate the matter for prosecution. You could be asked why you chose not to purchase a ticket when you admit you had an opportunity to do so.

They might sell you a ticket; this could be the full fare without any discounts.

I know what a UFN is, I thought that one could be issued even if I did have the ability to pay the fare on the basis that the RPO might not have the facilities to accept the payment.

 

[yorkie]

I know what a UFN is, I thought that one could be issued even if I did have the ability to pay the fare on the basis that the RPO might not have the facilities to accept the payment. Even then there might be technical issues which would prevent them from doing so e.g. a faulty card and/or ticket machine.

OK yes it is very rare, but in theory a UFN could be completed when passengers are wiling and able to pay the fare requested but the staff are unable to accept payment but are able to issue a UFN. It is not an acceptable practice in my opinion and I've only ever heard of this happening to someone once. It caused a lot of problems for that person but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[TurbostarFan]

OK yes it is very rare, but in theory a UFN could be completed when passengers are wiling and able to pay the fare requested but the staff are unable to accept payment but are able to issue a UFN. It is not an acceptable practice in my opinion and I've only ever heard of this happening to someone once. It caused a lot of problems for that person but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

Fair point, I've edited my post to reflect that on the basis that if issued with the facilities to sell a ticket then you would have a point. I agree with you on that.

 

[trebor79]

What is a UFN?

 

[TurbostarFan]

What is a UFN?

Unpaid Fare Notice.

 

[Haywain]

Not sure why you exclude an option of offering to pay the fare that is due and payment being accepted. A cynical person might feel that it's an option you don't want to consider.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I appreciate that it's a hypothetical situation, but with the example quoted there's a 30 minute wait at Norwich for most of the day, so if you did somehow manage to get as far as Liverpool Street without having bought a ticket I could see GA leaning towards prosecution for boarding the Intercity at Norwich having passed up an "opportunity to buy" the required ticket.

YMMV, of course.

 

[philthetube]

You need to bear in mind that there is no right to a penalty fare, entirely at the discretion of the operator

 

[Belperpete]

You cannot be prosecuted under the railway byelaws for not having a ticket if the station at which you started your journey does not have operational ticket purchasing facilities. Both Byelaws 17(3) and 18(3) give this exemption in both Penalty Fare areas and non penalty areas. However, you would be in breach of the National Conditions of Carriage, which state:
In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey.
INFORMATION: This means that you should buy a ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination.

Note that the INFORMATION bit does not count as part of the legal conditions, and is only guidance. However, what is "reasonably able" and "sufficient time" is open to argument. Half-an-hour should surely be adequate just about anywhere, but if your first train is delayed by say twenty minutes, so you only have ten minutes to collect, then it starts becoming doubtful. In one instance, I only just made it back to my onward train by the skin of my teeth. In future, I will only go to collect my ticket if there is plenty of time - in my experience, you may get out the barriers by saying that you need to collect your ticket, but you are highly unlikely to get back in again without one if you have trouble collecting your ticket. So allow for the possibility of there being a queue at the ticket machines, and a queue to get back through the barrier line, before you exit the barriers.

On a recent journey, I was unable to collect my ticket at the TVM which had "frozen", the guard on the service I then caught was unable to issue me my ticket as their machine wasn't working, I didn't have adequate time to collect my ticket at the interchange station, I requested a ticket from a member of traincrew immediately I joined the next train who told me she would get someone along to issue it, but no-one ever came, and finally when I got to London I showed my purchase receipt to the guy on the barrier and before I could explain the situation he just waved me through the barrier! I then promptly collected the ticket from the TVM outside the barrier, as required by the NCoC (and also I needed the return portion).

 

[[.n]]

You cannot be prosecuted under the railway byelaws for not having a ticket if the station at which you started your journey does not have operational ticket purchasing facilities. Both Byelaws 17(3) and 18(3) give this exemption in both Penalty Fare areas and non penalty areas. However, you would be in breach of the National Conditions of Carriage, which state:
In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey.
INFORMATION: This means that you should buy a ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination.

Note that the INFORMATION bit does not count as part of the legal conditions, and is only guidance. However, what is "reasonably able" and "sufficient time" is open to argument. Half-an-hour should surely be adequate just about anywhere, but if your first train is delayed by say twenty minutes, so you only have ten minutes to collect, then it starts becoming doubtful. In one instance, I only just made it back to my onward train by the skin of my teeth. In future, I will only go to collect my ticket if there is plenty of time - in my experience, you may get out the barriers by saying that you need to collect your ticket, but you are highly unlikely to get back in again without one if you have trouble collecting your ticket. So allow for the possibility of there being a queue at the ticket machines, and a queue to get back through the barrier line, before you exit the barriers.

I had this argument at East Croydon, recently (interchange station being Clapham Junction). I would say a reasonable time would have to be a combination of the minimum connection time for that station (x2 - as you are effectively making two connections) PLUS 15 minutes (ie a time I'm sure I've seen quoted elsewhere as a Charter requirement or similar for queuing times to buy a ticket).

So even in the Norwich example elsewhere in the thread, this may have not been possible, if you're on a preplanned itinerary.

{In my example I was following a route planner suggestion and I was unwilling to accept the the argument "there's loads of trains between CLJ and ECR, just take a different one"}

 

[Chrisgr31]

I'd hope that the recommended time to buy a ticket is significantly less than 15 minutes. I have a feeling that franchise requirements may be around 5 minutes. Personally I find it strange that we don't know. The TOCs probably dont want to know but I dont believe that its unreasonable that they should have to publish how much in advance you have to get to a station to buy a ticket before the train arrives.

 

[furlong]

Operators must use their "reasonable endeavours" to ensure that nobody has to queue for more than 5 minutes peak, 3 minutes off-peak. Every station with a ticket office displays prominently a notice stating its peak hours in a location accessible at all times. (So if a station is locked at night, this will be outside - the information may be included on a general station information poster outside the station entrance.) On top of that you need to allow time for the transaction itself and whatever reasonable extra margin you decide would be appropriate in the particular circumstances.

 

[Belperpete]

Operators must use their "reasonable endeavours" to ensure that nobody has to queue for more than 5 minutes peak, 3 minutes off-peak. Every station with a ticket office displays prominently a notice stating its peak hours in a location accessible at all times. (So if a station is locked at night, this will be outside - the information may be included on a general station information poster outside the station entrance.) On top of that you need to allow time for the transaction itself and whatever reasonable extra margin you decide would be appropriate in the particular circumstances.

5 / 3 minutes is certainly what the TfW Charter says. But that is only an aspiration, at times you may have to wait considerably longer than that. I had to wait over ten minutes at New Street last week. At some stations (such as Derby) you can see how long the booking office queue is before exiting the barrier, at others (such as New St) you can't.

 

[Belperpete]

I'd hope that the recommended time to buy a ticket is significantly less than 15 minutes. I have a feeling that franchise requirements may be around 5 minutes. Personally I find it strange that we don't know. The TOCs probably dont want to know but I dont believe that its unreasonable that they should have to publish how much in advance you have to get to a station to buy a ticket before the train arrives.

I suspect the reason they don't is so as not to give people a defence for getting on the train without a ticket. As things currently stand, you are required to obtain a ticket no matter how long you have to queue for it. For example, if all the TVMs are out of action and so there are horrendous queues at the booking office, you still have to get a ticket, even if it might mean missing your last train.

 

[island]

You cannot be prosecuted under the railway byelaws for not having a ticket if the station at which you started your journey does not have operational ticket purchasing facilities. Both Byelaws 17(3) and 18(3) give this exemption in both Penalty Fare areas and non penalty areas. However, you would be in breach of the National Conditions of Carriage, which state:
In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey.
INFORMATION: This means that you should buy a ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination.

On a point of technicality, byelaws 17 and 18 concern themselves with compulsory ticket areas and trains in non-compulsory ticket areas rather than penalty fare and non-penalty fare areas.

 

[TurbostarFan]

On a point of technicality, byelaws 17 and 18 concern themselves with compulsory ticket areas and trains in non-compulsory ticket areas rather than penalty fare and non-penalty fare areas.

Correct.