Fare availability during planned engineering works

[MDoodle]

Assume there are two fare types for a journey traveled from London to A:

• £15 London Terminals to A, TOC A only
• £20 London Terminals to A, Any Permitted

During the engineering works, TOC A has no trains running between London and A, and offering alternative route via TOC B.

Journey planners are not offering the cheaper fare as they check the actual train in the journey. But station TVMs are still offering the cheaper fare. Will the ticket be valid to travel if I managed to buy one from the machine?

Thanks.

 

[Watershed]

If there is explicitly ticket acceptance in place (you'd need to check the operator's website or NRE to know) rather than just a general suggestion, then yes, you could validly do this. If there is no published ticket acceptance, and you know about the engineering works when buying your ticket, it is a bit of a grey zone and I wouldn't suggest going down that road.

If you can tell us the details of the journey, we can look up what the situation is with ticket acceptance.

There are some websites/apps that will allow you to buy a saved walk-up fare for a chosen date without having to search for exact train times. These include the Southeastern and GTR (Southern/Thameslink/Great Northern) websites and apps. You can either reorder a previously purchased fare, or save a fare that's in your basket as a favourite when logged in, and then buy it again through the Favourites list.

 

[dastocks]

Try this one:

Brighton to London Victoria return on Sun 13th April, with railcard discount. Southern are diverted to London Bridge so rail-only tickets should be valid on the Underground to Victoria, but the Southern website only offers a Travelcard for this journey which is rather more expensive if you want the option of using the diverted Southern service instead of Thameslink.

 

[Watershed]

Try this one:

Brighton to London Victoria return on Sun 13th April, with railcard discount. Southern are diverted to London Bridge so rail-only tickets should be valid on the Underground to Victoria, but the Southern website only offers a Travelcard for this journey which is rather more expensive if you want the option of using the diverted Southern service instead of Thameslink.

That's because the ticket acceptance hasn't been digitised by adding it as a Routeing Guide easement, for example. Therefore, journey planners don't know about it, so they suggest the cheapest fare that would be valid during normal circumstances.

Taking that particular example, the ticket acceptance is as follows:

You can use your ticket at no extra cost on the following services:

London Underground:

• Victoria line between Vauxhall, London Victoria and London Euston
• Circle line between London Victoria and Shepherd's Bush and also between London Victoria and Blackfriars
• Central line between London Victoria and Shepherd's Bush
• District line between London Victoria and Blackfriars and also between London Victoria and West Brompton
• Bakerloo line between Oxford Circus and Harrow & Wealdstone
• Jubilee line between London Bridge and Canada Water

Other train operators:

• London Overground between London Euston and Watford Junction, between Clapham Junction and Willesden Junction, and also between Canada Water and Crystal Palace / West Croydon
• London North Western Railway between London Euston and Watford Junction
• South Western Railway between Queenstown Road (Battersea), Vauxhall and Clapham Junction

London Buses:

• Route 44 between London Victoria and Battersea Park
• Route 156 and 344 between Battersea Park and Clapham Junction
• Route 170 between London Victoria and Clapham Junction
• Route 255 between Balham and Streatham Hill

I would add that it's unlikely an eTicket or smartcard ticket would be accepted on some/all of the above routes (especially buses and the Underground). This is one of many reasons why I often prefer paper tickets, and why it's important that they remain a readily available option.

 

[dastocks]

That's because the ticket acceptance hasn't been digitised by adding it as a Routeing Guide easement, for example. Therefore, journey planners don't know about it, so they suggest the cheapest fare that would be valid during normal circumstances.

Taking that particular example, the ticket acceptance is as follows:


I would add that it's unlikely an eTicket or smartcard ticket would be accepted on some/all of the above routes (especially buses and the Underground). This is one of many reasons why I often prefer paper tickets, and why it's important that they remain a readily available option.

The list of other operators doesn't include Thameslink or Southeastern so there is no way to get to London Victoria from London Bridge under the listed ticket acceptance rules, unless I am missing something.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I assume that the alternative for a London victoria only ticket is Rail Replacement Bus East Croydon to Clapham Junction, London Bus 170 Clapham Junction to London Victoria.

Personally, I would use my season ticket/Key Go (I have a Southern KeyGo card) to travel via London Bridge, then use Oyster to Charing Cross then the Number 9 bus to get where I need to go to (even through I'd be paying more)

 

[infobleep]

That's because the ticket acceptance hasn't been digitised by adding it as a Routeing Guide easement, for example. Therefore, journey planners don't know about it, so they suggest the cheapest fare that would be valid during normal circumstances.

Taking that particular example, the ticket acceptance is as follows:


I would add that it's unlikely an eTicket or smartcard ticket would be accepted on some/all of the above routes (especially buses and the Underground). This is one of many reasons why I often prefer paper tickets, and why it's important that they remain a readily available option.

I don't see how the following helps someone get to or from London Victoria? Perhaps someone can explain the logic, if it exists.

Tickst acceptance

Bakerloo line between Oxford Circus and Harrow & Wealdstone
Jubilee line between London Bridge and Canada Water

https://www.southernrailway.com/service-updates/planned-engineering-work?date=2025-04-13#engineering-departure-board

However the following would work

Circle line between London Victoria and Blackfriars

https://www.southernrailway.com/service-updates/planned-engineering-work?date=2025-04-13#engineering-departure-board

So, although one can't go to London Bridge, they can go to Blackfrairs. Not much he'll if none of the Southern branded services from the coast stop at Blackfriars.

In circumstances such as this they should stop additionally at Blackfriars to enable people to lawfully use the tube to reach London Victoria, given they aren't allowing them ticket acceptance from London Bridge.

 

[30907]

In circumstances such as this they should stop additionally at Blackfriars to enable people to lawfully use the tube to reach London Victoria, given they aren't allowing them ticket acceptance from London Bridge.

I presume you mean extend to BFR?
This falls down on the lack of platform capacity there.

 

[dastocks]

A better example would be East Grinstead to Victoria return on the same day, where the journey planners give the route via Blackfriars, but expect passengers to pay £28.70 for a Travelcard instead of £16.50 for the normal direct route (these are the undiscounted off-peak fares). In practise I suspect the 'normal' ticket would be accepted.

The last time Victoria was closed to Southern trains I travelled via Blackfriars using a normal ticket for the direct route to Victoria having been assured that it would be valid. However, at Blackfriars it turned out that the Underground there was also closed so I continued to King's Cross and was able to negotiate with the gate-line staff to use my ticket on the Victoria Line.

 

[MDoodle]

If there is explicitly ticket acceptance in place (you'd need to check the operator's website or NRE to know) rather than just a general suggestion, then yes, you could validly do this. If there is no published ticket acceptance, and you know about the engineering works when buying your ticket, it is a bit of a grey zone and I wouldn't suggest going down that road.

If you can tell us the details of the journey, we can look up what the situation is with ticket acceptance.

There are some websites/apps that will allow you to buy a saved walk-up fare for a chosen date without having to search for exact train times. These include the Southeastern and GTR (Southern/Thameslink/Great Northern) websites and apps. You can either reorder a previously purchased fare, or save a fare that's in your basket as a favourite when logged in, and then buy it again through the Favourites list.

The journey is London to Milton Keynes Central in the Easter weekend. For return tickets, the any permitted JD fare is double the price of the TOC-restricted KM fare.
I think the ticket acceptance on London Northwestern's website (much better than Avanti) covered this.

 

[infobleep]

I presume you mean extend to BFR?
This falls down on the lack of platform capacity there.

I was forgetting the order of stops. It would indeed be extend.

I guess the only lawful way, avoiding the higher costs, is the bus. One gets to see the suburbs of Greater London.

I wonder if I should do it some day, for the experience.

The journey is London to Milton Keynes Central in the Easter weekend. For return tickets, the any permitted JD fare is double the price of the TOC-restricted KM fare.
I think the ticket acceptance on London Northwestern's website (much better than Avanti) covered this.

This is what it says on the London Northwestern Railway Web site about the engineering works.

A joint replacement bus plan will be in place, provided by Avanti West Coast and London Northwestern Railway, buses will run between Bedford and Milton Keynes Central. You should use East Midlands Railway / Thameslink trains between London St Pancras International and Bedford to connect to / from buses at Bedford.

Major Engineering work between London Euston and Watford Junction / Milton Keynes Central from Friday 18 to Monday 21 April

www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk

So a ticket from London at the cheaper price would be valid.

 

[Watershed]

I was forgetting the order of stops. It would indeed be extend.

I guess the only lawful way, avoiding the higher costs, is the bus. One gets to see the suburbs of Greater London.

I wonder if I should do it some day, for the experience.

You could just get a Thameslink service to Blackfriars (changing at East Croydon/London Bridge if necessary) and then the Circle line, surely?

This is what it says on the London Northwestern Railway Web site about the engineering works.

Major Engineering work between London Euston and Watford Junction / Milton Keynes Central from Friday 18 to Monday 21 April

www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk

So a ticket from London at the cheaper price would be valid.

It doesn't explicitly set out that there is ticket acceptance, just that this is the alternative route in operation. Given that the cheap Super Off-Peak Returns are routed either "Avanti only" or "LNR only", it is a legitimate question. I think the intention is for them to be valid via Bedford, but that's not been spelled out.

 

[MDoodle]

You could just get a Thameslink service to Blackfriars (changing at East Croydon/London Bridge if necessary) and then the Circle line, surely?


It doesn't explicitly set out that there is ticket acceptance, just that this is the alternative route in operation. Given that the cheap Super Off-Peak Returns are routed either "Avanti only" or "LNR only", it is a legitimate question. I think the intention is for them to be valid via Bedford, but that's not been spelled out.

They have another page about the same engineering works. Ticket Acceptance is listed in this one.

May Day Bank Holiday Engineering Works: No trains between Milton Keynes Central and London Euston

www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk

Ticket Acceptance​

• Valid tickets for travel to/from London will be accepted on rail replacement buses between Milton Keynes – Bedford and Watford Junction.
• Your ticket will also be accepted for use on the following routes:
  • East Midlands Railway and GTR services between Bedford – London St Pancras
  • GTR services between Potters Bar - London Kings Cross
  • East Midlands Railway services between Wellingborough - London St Pancras (on Sunday 20 April and Monday 21 April only)

 

[redreni]

Is explicit ticket acceptance to Blackfriars required? Surely a London Terminals ticket would be valid that way anyway? I wouldn't pay any attention to any GTR brand restrictions, personally.

If I'm wrong about the above or have missed something, I would much rather walk along the riverside from London Bridge to Blackfriars and continue by tube to Victoria than take those buses.

 

[infobleep]

You could just get a Thameslink service to Blackfriars (changing at East Croydon/London Bridge if necessary) and then the Circle line, surely?

I was assuming but perhaps incorrectly that they didn't like the seats on the Thameslink bra ded rlling stock and thus wanted to use the Southern branded rolling stock.

Is explicit ticket acceptance to Blackfriars required? Surely a London Terminals ticket would be valid that way anyway? I wouldn't pay any attention to any GTR brand restrictions, personally.

If I'm wrong about the above or have missed something, I would much rather walk along the riverside from London Bridge to Blackfriars and continue by tube to Victoria than take those buses.

The walk is very nice. I have done it when there has been engineering works and ticket acceptance was offered.