Fare evasion and enforcement.

[Geordie driver]

Obviously I am referring to normal times, not the current situation.

Do bus companies still take action over fare evasion where you live? From what I can gather in my old stamping ground ( Newcastle) companies have basically given up and put everything on to the driver, in the unlikely event of seeing an inspector they invariably are there to check on the driver, not the passengers.

Your thoughts?

 

[carlberry]

Obviously I am referring to normal times, not the current situation.

Do bus companies still take action over fare evasion where you live? From what I can gather in my old stamping ground ( Newcastle) companies have basically given up and put everything on to the driver, in the unlikely event of seeing an inspector they invariably are there to check on the driver, not the passengers.

Your thoughts?

I'd say that inspection has always been more about checking the drivers/conductors, even back in the days when there were more of them. With the quick/free boarding systems (Oyster and trams) then it's passenger based, otherwise the assumption has always been that the driver/conductor is in on it.

The 'no need for a ticket drive' fiddle appears to crop up all over the place with stories of new drivers not realising what was going on (or realising what was going on and not wanting to be part of it). Of course, as with all stories, it's hard to know what the actual truth was and how widespread the practice actually was.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Obviously I am referring to normal times, not the current situation.

Do bus companies still take action over fare evasion where you live? From what I can gather in my old stamping ground ( Newcastle) companies have basically given up and put everything on to the driver, in the unlikely event of seeing an inspector they invariably are there to check on the driver, not the passengers.

Your thoughts?

Been a long time since I had an inspector out and about. What has really happened has been the march of technology.

Passengers fiddling the system - there is still the ability to potentially over-ride i.e. pay from A to B but get off at C. However, the leaps of ticket technology in terms of m-tickets and the like have managed to massively reduce some of the larger scale fraud that used to exist. There were other scams like counterfeit passes, but 3D bar coding (QR codes) have also reduced that. Note that in some areas (like Merseyside) that there is a major problem with age related fraud on its MyTicket scheme where no ID is required for a person claiming to be under 19. Of course, in certain areas, we now have "tap and cap" with the need to tap in and tap out so that will also have an impact on fare evasion as more firms adopt it.

Managing drivers - the number of drivers fiddling the system was always a very, very small percentage of drivers; you could probably recall the few that got caught in your days and when they were, I expect you weren't that surprised. Sadly, you will occasionally get the odd one. With fewer cash sales, the likelihood is much smaller anyway nowadays, with ENCTS passes forming a major part of the travelling public, and also in respect of other m-tickets etc. The other issue was making sure that drivers were not running early or off route. With GPS, that is very easy to manage. Also, the amount of data that comes from the ticket machine allows you to undertake trend analysis much more easily so if there is a "wrong un", they can be identified relatively easily and steps taken.

Yes, there will be some fare evasion but to a level where the cost of resources to stop it means it probably isn't cost effective.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The other issue was making sure that drivers were not running early or off route. With GPS, that is very easy to manage.

MK used to have a massive problem with that because most routes run slowly through the estates but you've got the fast grid road network, so a popular game on evening services was to run fast and have a longer break at the terminus. Whenever I saw it (as it was obvious when you did) I reported it, but there weren't really the resources to solve it. You also had a lot of early running in the evenings as drivers wouldn't wait time.

I did laugh the day Arriva turned on GPS tracking. The problem stopped dead that day, and never returned.

 

[Pat1105]

I never see revenue inspectors out and about where I live. Nowadays, it is the drivers responsibility to enforce revenue as stated above however there are some drivers who don’t really care and don’t challenge fare evasion so they can avoid the hassle of a possibly aggressive passenger. With tracking, it hasn’t really stopped drivers running off route. Diamond drivers are particularly known for running off route, although it isn’t as common as it once was. I’ve had drivers on Diamond who have missed out sections of the route and one once cut through a car park to cut off a corner.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I never see revenue inspectors out and about where I live. Nowadays, it is the drivers responsibility to enforce revenue as stated above however there are some drivers who don’t really care and don’t challenge fare evasion so they can avoid the hassle of a possibly aggressive passenger. With tracking, it hasn’t really stopped drivers running off route. Diamond drivers are particularly known for running off route, although it isn’t as common as it once was. I’ve had drivers on Diamond who have missed out sections of the route and one once cut through a car park to cut off a corner.

Tracking only stops drivers running early or off route if the information is used by the management. I would expect that Arriva, as well as turning on GPS tracking, also actively managed drivers via exception reporting.

 

[Geordie driver]

Being caught fiddling was a big no no and invariably meant instant dismissal where I worked. By the time I !eft there was no way I would put myself at risk confronting fare evasion, the company would never back you up if things went wrong.

Do they still have those stickers up offering a reward for information about people assaulting drivers?

I once asked how much the company had paid out, they declined to answer.

 

[Pat1105]

Being caught fiddling was a big no no and invariably meant instant dismissal where I worked. By the time I !eft there was no way I would put myself at risk confronting fare evasion, the company would never back you up if things went wrong.

Do they still have those stickers up offering a reward for information about people assaulting drivers?

I once asked how much the company had paid out, they declined to answer.

Nowadays, it is easier to identify suspects with CCTV, voice recorders etc. I suppose drivers are grateful for the assault screen (where fitted) for protection against assault.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nowadays, it is easier to identify suspects with CCTV, voice recorders etc. I suppose drivers are grateful for the assault screen (where fitted) for protection against assault.

Probably different at the moment, but I don't think I've ever seen a bus in MK where it wasn't left open.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Being caught fiddling was a big no no and invariably meant instant dismissal where I worked.

Indeed. My father was a shop steward and had no sympathy for drivers caught fiddling, and suspect most of his colleagues felt the same.

Nowadays, it is easier to identify suspects with CCTV, voice recorders etc. I suppose drivers are grateful for the assault screen (where fitted) for protection against assault.

Probably different at the moment, but I don't think I've ever seen a bus in MK where it wasn't left open.

Depends. Most drivers find the problem of reflections off them worse than the minor risk of some altercation.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

From my observations in London, lots of people, including those with pushchairs board through the exit doors and deliberately, or "forget" to tap in

And the drivers don't want confrontation and thus, they leave the matter with the inspectors

 

[Pat1105]

Probably different at the moment, but I don't think I've ever seen a bus in MK where it wasn't left open.

Indeed. My father was a shop steward and had no sympathy for drivers caught fiddling, and suspect most of his colleagues felt the same.





Depends. Most drivers find the problem of reflections off them worse than the minor risk of some altercation.

The NX ones are solid and you can’t move them up or down. The old B6’s had screens that you could raise/lower.

 

[robk23oxf]

Outside of London at least, revenue inspectors are there to check the drivers are doing their jobs correctly and not fiddling the money. The problem is when drivers check all the tickets and then passengers immediately discard the ticket in the bin at the front of the bus. There's nothing to stop the inspector jumping to the conclusion that the driver has let that person on for free when they don't have a ticket to produce, fortunately in this day and age there is CCTV to back up the driver if it does get reported.

Sometimes someone a bit shifty will get on and I'll just know straight away that they're up to something so I take note of where they bought a ticket to and see where they get out. I have the option of calling for an inspector to meet me along the route if I think something is up however the chances of that happening are slim when we only have two inspectors for the whole county.

 

[Pat1105]

Outside of London at least, revenue inspectors are there to check the drivers are doing their jobs correctly and not fiddling the money. The problem is when drivers check all the tickets and then passengers immediately discard the ticket in the bin at the front of the bus. There's nothing to stop the inspector jumping to the conclusion that the driver has let that person on for free when they don't have a ticket to produce, fortunately in this day and age there is CCTV to back up the driver if it does get reported.

The inspectors ticket on a Wayfarer TGX 200 shows the previous 6 activities on the machine and the time that they were carried out. Granted, it may not provide enough evidence to determine wether someone has bought a ticket and discarded it as there may have been more than 6 people boarding at the time the inspectors got on or the person had boarded prior to the inspectors, but it does show something. As I understand, some inspectors will actually go out onto the buses and target certain repeating fare evasion suspects caught by CCTV etc, in which case this system works well. I’m not sure if other machines produce a slightly more detailed inspectors ticket?

 

[robk23oxf]

The inspectors ticket on a Wayfarer TGX 200 shows the previous 6 activities on the machine and the time that they were carried out. Granted, it may not provide enough evidence to determine wether someone has bought a ticket and discarded it as there may have been more than 6 people boarding at the time the inspectors got on or the person had boarded prior to the inspectors, but it does show something. As I understand, some inspectors will actually go out onto the buses and target certain repeating fare evasion suspects caught by CCTV etc, in which case this system works well. I’m not sure if other machines produce a slightly more detailed inspectors ticket?

VIX machines can produce a Trip Transaction Report which shows all transactions for the current trip, this is usually requested by the inspector. In some areas the inspector will have their own ticket machine card and they will log on when they board although this takes longer as the driver then has to log back on again afterwards.

 

[Geordie driver]

Outside of London at least, revenue inspectors are there to check the drivers are doing their jobs correctly and not fiddling the money. The problem is when drivers check all the tickets and then passengers immediately discard the ticket in the bin at the front of the bus. There's nothing to stop the inspector jumping to the conclusion that the driver has let that person on for free when they don't have a ticket to produce, fortunately in this day and age there is CCTV to back up the driver if it does get reported.

Sometimes someone a bit shifty will get on and I'll just know straight away that they're up to something so I take note of where they bought a ticket to and see where they get out. I have the option of calling for an inspector to meet me along the route if I think something is up however the chances of that happening are slim when we only have two inspectors for the whole county.

This appears to be how most companies work in my experience, except if I had asked an inspector to come out they would think I was bonkers. You do get a feeling for the dodgier customers.

 

[philthetube]

From my observations in London, lots of people, including those with pushchairs board through the exit doors and deliberately, or "forget" to tap in

And the drivers don't want confrontation and thus, they leave the matter with the inspectors

They may not need to tap in, paper travelcard being an obvious reason, not sure if people who have other form of travelcard need to?

 

[delticdave]

They may not need to tap in, paper travelcard being an obvious reason, not sure if people who have other form of travelcard need to?

If you have an OAP bus-pass, do you still have to "tap-in" or show it to the driver, in London or elsewhere?

 

[Pat1105]

They may not need to tap in, paper travelcard being an obvious reason, not sure if people who have other form of travelcard need to?

If you have an OAP bus-pass, do you still have to "tap-in" or show it to the driver, in London or elsewhere?

All tickets and passes must be shown to the driver or placed on the card reader, regardless. This is so that the passenger can be recorded on the ticket machine. Also, the type of ticket e.g daysavers or mobile tickets are recorded so the company know how much of each ticket type they are selling.

 

[delticdave]

All tickets and passes must be shown to the driver or placed on the card reader, regardless. This is so that the passenger can be recorded on the ticket machine. Also, the type of ticket e.g daysavers or mobile tickets are recorded so the company know how much of each ticket type they are selling.

I understand what you are saying, but since all London buses are now middle door entry / exit to protect the driver + they no-longer require oyster-cards, etc. to be"tapped-in", what am I supposed to do if I need to use one.

 

[Pat1105]

I understand what you are saying, but since all London buses are now middle door entry / exit to protect the driver + they no-longer require oyster-cards, etc. to be"tapped-in", what am I supposed to do if I need to use one.

London Buses are operating a free service for key workers at the moment, so there is no need to tap in.