Final Reminder

[aram]

Hi guys,
So I received this email in January and didn’t see until very recently as the email I registered with trainline is not my main and I don’t check frequently,
I have been travelling from Liverpool to Manchester 4-5 times a week, I usually buy open return E-tickets as it’s almost the same price as return.
I have been informed that I have re-used tickets, usually the tickets remain in the app for a month as the are open-return.

Now they are telling my I have re-used some return tickets, I can’t remember doing so unless it was a mistake and showed older E-tickets to scan instead of the very recent.

After receiving the email. Now they are demanding £575 as admin fee and ticket costs.
What should I do please?

We have been alerted to activity on your ticket purchasing history which we feel warrants
further investigation. We would therefore like to invite you to an interview in relation to this.
The interview would be under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 and can be arranged
at a time and location convenient to yourself.

There is no assumption of guilt at this stage in proceedings as we are simply undertaking an
investigation of what has been deemed, possible suspicious activity. Part of the investigation
is questioning you about the activity and this interview must be done in a formal setting
following legislation which would allow the content to be admissible as evidence at Court if
matters progressed to that stage. You are entitled to seek legal advice at your own cost and
arrangement in relation to this matter and any Solicitor you instruct can attend the interview
with you.

We would be grateful if you could please contact our Fraud Investigator,

If you do not respond to our correspondence by 22 February 2024 or decline to be interviewed
in relation to this matter, we will continue our investigations and may progress this matter by
way of a private prosecution against you.

 

[furlong]

The starting point is simple: Have you paid in full for all your journeys? Or do you know - or think - there might be some where you did not?
In other words, is this a mistake of SCANNING (the wrong tickets), or is it a mistake of (not) PURCHASING?
Or to put it another way, has the train company not received money from you to which it was entitled?

The way to respond depends very much on what actually happened.

Relating to the period of time under investigation:

Do you ever buy single tickets for this journey?
Do you ever have tickets refunded?
Do you ever make claims for delays?
Do you ever buy return tickets for this journey in the opposite direction?
Do you ever make the rail journey in one direction only and if so how do you get back?

Have they provided a schedule showing what journeys make up that £575?

Are you confident that, for every time they claim a ticket was scanned a second time but invalid, there will be another ticket that was not scanned when it should have been?

 

[Snow1964]

Take some time with pen and bit of paper and a calendar and write down each day you travelled, what the ticket number was (assuming you bought a ticket).

If you have fair number of tickets it is possibly you offered the wrong one, and inspector didn't ask for correct one.

If this has happened then you might have some tickets shown twice, but others which will appear unused.

As long as you haven't tried to refund the unshown ones shouldn't be a problem.

Keep your schedule to compare to the £575 and see if any of the tickets are swapped. Accidentally showing wrong ticket and not being asked for correct ticket is not an offence, unlike not a ticket

 

[Fawkes Cat]

One thing to add - the £575 will almost certainly be made up of an admin fee (typically £100 or £150 but it might be a little less or rather more - whichever, it will be a round sum) and the costs of the journeys which the railway thinks you haven't paid for at the full cost (i.e. an anytime single each way rather than a return ticket). If your journey is Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Piccadilly then brfares.com (an unofficial but reliable website) says that fare will be £18.40. This may help you identify how many journeys the railway think you haven't paid for.

 

[island]

The action to take will be very different depending on whether you actually did purchase and hold a valid ticket for each and every journey.

If on the other hand you tried it on by reusing open return tickets multiple times, start saving.

 

[aram]

The starting point is simple: Have you paid in full for all your journeys? Or do you know - or think - there might be some where you did not?
In other words, is this a mistake of SCANNING (the wrong tickets), or is it a mistake of (not) PURCHASING?
Or to put it another way, has the train company not received money from you to which it was entitled?

The way to respond depends very much on what actually happened.

Relating to the period of time under investigation:

Do you ever buy single tickets for this journey? Le
Do you ever have tickets refunded?
Do you ever make claims for delays?
Do you ever buy return tickets for this journey in the opposite direction?
Do you ever make the rail journey in one direction only and if so how do you get back?

Have they provided a schedule showing what journeys make up that £575?

Are you confident that, for every time they claim a ticket was scanned a second time but invalid, there will be another ticket that was not scanned when it should have been?

Thank you for your reply. I have paid in full everytime as I usually but open-return option, price is the same as same day return. I used to come back with a friend who drives a couple times a month. On those times I used to buy a single ticket.during past two years I must have bought 300+ open return tickets in total for the same route (that might include around 30 singles)

I believe it is a scanning mistake I have shown old used tickets by mistake instead of new as they stay in the app for the whole month, I usually have a bunch of tickets in the app not mark them as used (which I do now after the letter).

Never asked for refunds as my tickets are not eligible for refunds.

They have not shown any details of how this amount of £575 makes up such as how many tickets and when. All it shows its 250 for investigation fee and the rest is the worth if the “missed “tickets.

One thing to add - the £575 will almost certainly be made up of an admin fee (typically £100 or £150 but it might be a little less or rather more - whichever, it will be a round sum) and the costs of the journeys which the railway thinks you haven't paid for at the full cost (i.e. an anytime single each way rather than a return ticket). If your journey is Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Piccadilly then brfares.com (an unofficial but reliable website) says that fare will be £18.40. This may help you identify how many journeys the railway think you haven't paid for.

My journeys were from Liverpool lime street to Manchester oxford road and back.

Here is another email they sent me recently:

“
Following our investigations and no further correspondence being received from yourself in relation to
organising a voluntary interview, on this occasion we are going to take the extremely lenient step of
giving you the opportunity to repay to Northern Trains Limited the difference in fares of £325.10 that
should have been paid originally. In addition to the outstanding train fares there is a settlement fee of
£250.00 for costs incurred for the investigation of this case.”

 

[John R]

Ah, so I can see where the problem arises now, as the purchase of singles periodically will arouse suspicion, particularly if the single fare is purchased the day after a return ticket is not scanned.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

. I have paid in full everytime as I usually but open-return option, price is the same as same day return. I used to come back with a friend who drives a couple times a month. On those times I used to buy a single ticket.during past two years I must have bought 300+ open return tickets in total for the same route (that might include around 30 singles)

I'm sure you are telling the truth (because you have no reason to lie to us - all it would do is see us try to help you with what you had told us about rather than your real problem) but you may struggle to get the railway to believe the above. Take a look at the prices on the link here

brfares.com

These fares are from Lime Street to Piccadilly but they are the same to Oxford Road.

If you look at the standard class anytime day return against the anytime short return with the same restrictions (any permitted route or Northern only) you'll see that the difference in fare is three or five pounds or so, on a ticket that's around twenty pounds. On the twenty pound fare, that's quite a big difference to pay every time for flexibility that you might use a couple of times a month.

(Quoting Northern Railway). on this occasion we are going to take the extremely lenient step of giving you the opportunity to repay to Northern Trains Limited the difference in fares of £325.10 that should have been paid originally. In addition to the outstanding train fares there is a settlement fee of £250.00 for costs incurred for the investigation of this case

If, as I suggested earlier, the railway are looking for the full single fare, then the £325.10 in fares that they're asking for suggests they think you have (£325.10 / £18.40) = 17.67 so 17 or 18 journeys that you should pay for. Think about whether you may have been in error that many times, and if so whether it's worth settling the matter now.

 

[fandroid]

I think you should write back immediately summarising exactly what you have said to us, but emphasizing that you have always paid the full fare for every journey. It will do no harm to explain why you missed their first emails too, especially if you can give them the email address that you more normally use.

 

[gray1404]

If you are positive that no tickets have been scanned more than once by mistake then you are absolutely under no obligation to engage with the railway. They will have absolutely no evidence that you have traveled without a ticket and they are merely on a fishing exhibition here.

They have got an absolute cheek in my opinion and it is for them to prove that one has travelled without a ticket it's not for you to disprove or provide an explanation.

 

[fandroid]

If you are positive that no tickets have been scanned more than once by mistake then you are absolutely under no obligation to engage with the railway. They will have absolutely no evidence that you have traveled without a ticket and they are merely on a fishing exhibition here.

They have got an absolute cheek in my opinion and it is for them to prove that one has travelled without a ticket it's not for you to disprove or provide an explanation.

The problem is that tickets probably have been scanned more than once. The rail company may well think that they have evidence of travel without a valid ticket and ignoring any correspondence could result in a Single Justice Procedure Notice turning up in the mail.

This is Northern Trains. We have seen from FOI requests that they are very used to having their letters ignored and they routinely go on to prosecute those cases.