Fines issued on Marlow branch line

[Jamiescott1]

I took the marlow branch today as I do 10 times a week.
Usually you can buy tickets on the train but today there was revenue protection who issued a penalty notice to someone who didn't have a ticket (not me as I have a season ticket).
There are signs up saying it is a compulsory ticket area and tickets must be purchased tickets before boarding. There are ticket machines at each Station. Ive done over 200 journeys on this branch line and the guard always sells tickets on the journey.
You should buy before you board but the president as been set by tickets always being sold on the train

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I took the marlow branch today as I do 10 times a week.
Usually you can buy tickets on the train but today there was revenue protection who issued a penalty notice to someone who didn't have a ticket (not me as I have a season ticket).
There are signs up saying it is a compulsory ticket area and tickets must be purchased tickets before boarding. There are ticket machines at each Station. Ive done over 200 journeys on this branch line and the guard always sells tickets on the journey.
You should buy before you board but the president as been set by tickets always being sold on the train

I think the railway would argue that it's less to do with precedent (this is what happened before, so it's what must happen again) than with reasonable expectation (this is what happened before, so it's reasonable for me to expect it will happen again). Reasonable expectation isn't as strong as precedent - and you also tell us that

There are signs up saying it is a compulsory ticket area and tickets must be purchased tickets before boarding

If you have been told by a sign that you must have a ticket before boarding, is it reasonable to expect to be able to get your ticket after boarding, even if you have done it before?

This might be speculating a step too far, but it's interesting that this revenue check came a few days before the Elizabeth Line opens to Maidenhead. I know there isn't through-running yet, but we're close to the point where getting on at (say) Furze Platt would allow you into TfL's network without passing a ticket barrier. Are TfL keen to discourage ticketless travel on their system - and would GWR help them out with this?

 

[warwickshire]

I think the railway would argue that it's less to do with precedent (this is what happened before, so it's what must happen again) than with reasonable expectation (this is what happened before, so it's reasonable for me to expect it will happen again). Reasonable expectation isn't as strong as precedent - and you also tell us that

If you have been told by a sign that you must have a ticket before boarding, is it reasonable to expect to be able to get your ticket after boarding, even if you have done it before?

This might be speculating a step too far, but it's interesting that this revenue check came a few days before the Elizabeth Line opens to Maidenhead. I know there isn't through-running yet, but we're close to the point where getting on at (say) Furze Platt would allow you into TfL's network without passing a ticket barrier. Are TfL keen to discourage ticketless travel on their system - and would GWR help them out with this?

Quite interesting and very valid point.
Last week for the first time ever when travelling TFL Crossrail from Reading to London on came at Maidenhead to Southall, 4 MTR Crossrail inspectors and was actively processing a few without tickets on board who actually got on at Maidenhead. So obviously GWR have been informed and on their part due to this are actually doing something about it. Zero Tolerance.

 

[Jason12]

If you have been told by a sign that you must have a ticket before boarding, is it reasonable to expect to be able to get your ticket after boarding, even if you have done it before?

It's understandable that if you have regularly seen tickets purchased on board, you will expect to be able to do the same, regardless of what the sign says. It's a reasonable expectation in the absence of any other contradictory information.

The contradictory information is that on the less regular occasions when a revenue inspection is carried out, the inspectors will issue a Penalty Fare rather than a normal ticket. The passengers who are aware of that will understand the risk of not purchasing a ticket before travelling and won't have a reasonable expectation of purchasing on board.

I think it would be helpful, where guards issue tickets in Penalty Fare areas, that they remind the passenger that ignoring he sign next time they travel may result in a Penalty Fare being issued.

 

[methecooldude]

I think it would be helpful, where guards issue tickets in Penalty Fare areas, that they remind the passenger that ignoring he sign next time they travel may result in a Penalty Fare being issued.

They have a warning every time a ticket is purchased from a guard, namely the red text below.
I'm sure it's the same if not similar on the "toilet roll" type tickets as well

 

[philthetube]

Guards are not going to discourage on train sales for one reason, commission.

 

[railwaytrack]

I thought that the Marlow branch (and all of the other Thames Valley branches) was DOO? So who are these Guards that normally sell tickets onboard? Are these actually Ticket Examiners that are able to sell tickets but not issue penalty fares?

 

[Watershed]

I thought that the Marlow branch (and all of the other Thames Valley branches) was DOO? So who are these Guards that normally sell tickets onboard? Are these actually Ticket Examiners that are able to sell tickets but not issue penalty fares?

All Marlow services are guard operated, owing to the need for a "trainman" to operate the ground frame upon reversal at Bourne End. Peak time Bourne End shuttles are DOO, though they may well still have a Ticket Examiner rostered.

 

[railwaytrack]

All Marlow services are guard operated, owing to the need for a "trainman" to operate the ground frame upon reversal at Bourne End. Peak time Bourne End shuttles are DOO, though they may well still have a Ticket Examiner rostered.

Many thanks for the information. I never knew that. I had presumed it was a DOO route.

 

[Haywain]

Guards are not going to discourage on train sales for one reason, commission.

Actually, they probably do it to avoid the abuse they get for telling people about penalty fares.

 

[LowLevel]

Actually, they probably do it to avoid the abuse they get for telling people about penalty fares.

Correct! Even mentioning them can lead to a tirade about "jobsworthiness" from brain dead knuckle draggers.

Not my problem, didn't ask for penalty fares, don't issue them, the signage is there for everyone to see and ignore at their peril.

 

[mmh]

It's understandable that if you have regularly seen tickets purchased on board, you will expect to be able to do the same, regardless of what the sign says. It's a reasonable expectation in the absence of any other contradictory information.

It's also not unknown for companies to put such signs in locations where they are incorrect, and clearly make no sense, for example the "you must buy before boarding" poster at Conwy, an unstaffed station with no ticket machines. I don't think I'd consider it unreasonable for a passenger to think such signs are a badly worded and poorly targeted encouragement to buy before boarding rather than a rule. Particularly if the passenger has also witnessed that buying on board is commonplace.

 

[RPI]

Having seen tickets previously sold on board trains doesn't set any precedent, the people being sold tickets on trains could well have been people unable to purchase before boarding due to only having cash/wanting a groupsave/other ticket not available at a TVM.

 

[mmh]

Having seen tickets previously sold on board trains doesn't set any precedent, the people being sold tickets on trains could well have been people unable to purchase before boarding due to only having cash/wanting a groupsave/other ticket not available at a TVM.

As well as seeing it, most people can hear so our passenger may well "see" exactly what other passengers have bought on board, and what payment method they have used.

"Return to blah please. Card, please" probably covers the vast majority of tickets bought on board.

 

[Bertie the bus]

This comes up quite regularly. It’s wrong to one day sell someone a ticket and the next penalty fare them.

So what is the solution?

Only certain staff are authorised to issue penalty fares so if revenue protection are not around the guard can either just sell them a ticket or not sell them a ticket and let them have a free ride. Even if guards were authorised to issue penalty fares they take quite a while to issue, especially if they have to confirm the details, so they probably wouldn’t have the time to issue them anyway.

Instead of looking at it that the penalty fared passengers are hard done by because normally they can just buy a ticket it should be viewed as they have been lucky to be allowed to buy a ticket on the train, and probably getting the occasional free ride, so they can’t complain about a penalty fare once in a while.

 

[Starmill]

Tickets are never guaranteed to be available for sale onboard the train unless there was no way to purchase the correct ticket before boarding. There are still plenty of stations that do not have ticket machines, or occasions where there's no working ticket machine.

 

[Jamiescott1]

How would it stand up in court if the person issued a penalty fare could prove he had brought a ticket on the train during his previous 10 journeys?

The guard always starts at the rear of the train. Most people on the marlow branch who attempt to get a free journey know this so sit at the front of the train. The person in question was towards the rear.

The revenue protection officer was saying something along the lines of "when you go to tesco, you pay for the food before you go home and cook it" when the person in question kept saying I've just finished a 12 hour shift I always buy a ticket on the train. The revenue protection officer said "so you've done this before?". I think he didn't give his details and we arrived at marlow and he just got up and left

 

[Starmill]

How would it stand up in court if the person issued a penalty fare could prove he had brought a ticket on the train during his previous 10 journeys?

The guard always starts at the rear of the train. Most people on the marlow branch who attempt to get a free journey know this so sit at the front of the train. The person in question was towards the rear.

To challenge a Penalty Fare you usually use the Penalty Fare appeals process rather than going to court. The third stage appeal may very well take into account that previous tickets have been permitted to be purchased onboard, if clear evidence of this is supplied.

If facing criminal charges at court, it is very, very unlikely that admitting to having previously committed the offence but not been punished for it will change anything.

 

[philthetube]

It's also not unknown for companies to put such signs in locations where they are incorrect, and clearly make no sense, for example the "you must buy before boarding" poster at Conwy, an unstaffed station with no ticket machines. I don't think I'd consider it unreasonable for a passenger to think such signs are a badly worded and poorly targeted encouragement to buy before boarding rather than a rule. Particularly if the passenger has also witnessed that buying on board is commonplace.

How would it stand up in court if the person issued a penalty fare could prove he had brought a ticket on the train during his previous 10 journeys?

The guard always starts at the rear of the train. Most people on the marlow branch who attempt to get a free journey know this so sit at the front of the train. The person in question was towards the rear.

The revenue protection officer was saying something along the lines of "when you go to tesco, you pay for the food before you go home and cook it" when the person in question kept saying I've just finished a 12 hour shift I always buy a ticket on the train. The revenue protection officer said "so you've done this before?". I think he didn't give his details and we arrived at marlow and he just got up and left

If anything that poster sets more of a precedent than seeing someone but on the train, "That notice is everywhere, even where it is impossible".

 

[Falcon1200]

How would it stand up in court if the person issued a penalty fare could prove he had brought a ticket on the train during his previous 10 journeys?

Would the Train Operator perhaps argue that passengers, if travelling between two non-barriered stations, or to a location further on from where they had a valid ticket, were deliberately not paying before travelling in the hope that tickets would not be checked on board ?

 

[Andy Pacer]

They have a warning every time a ticket is purchased from a guard, namely the red text below.
I'm sure it's the same if not similar on the "toilet roll" type tickets as well

As long as you know whether you're boarding at a 'Penalty Fares Station'

 

[swt_passenger]

I took the marlow branch today as I do 10 times a week.
Usually you can buy tickets on the train but today there was revenue protection who issued a penalty notice to someone who didn't have a ticket (not me as I have a season ticket).
There are signs up saying it is a compulsory ticket area and tickets must be purchased tickets before boarding. There are ticket machines at each Station. Ive done over 200 journeys on this branch line and the guard always sells tickets on the journey.
You should buy before you board but the president as been set by tickets always being sold on the train

Is it (the whole branch) really now a proper Compulsory Ticket Area, with the necessary signage and notices? They’re incredibly rare on National Rail stations.

 

[island]

Is it (the whole branch) really now a proper Compulsory Ticket Area, with the necessary signage and notices? They’re incredibly rare on National Rail stations.

Compulsory Ticket Areas are a completely different matter and the concept is not relevant here. I think the OP has used the term informally.

 

[swt_passenger]

Compulsory Ticket Areas are a completely different matter and the concept is not relevant here. I think the OP has used the term informally.

Yes I expect he has, as it’s a big step for GWR to take suddenly, given the ease of access to branch stations.

 

[island]

Marlow, Cookham, and Furze Platt have only been added to the Penalty Fares scheme relatively recently, for what it's worth, so some old habits might be dying hard.

 

[swt_passenger]

Marlow, Cookham, and Furze Platt have only been added to the Penalty Fares scheme relatively recently, for what it's worth, so some old habits might be dying hard.

Yes, people do seem to assume the two always go together. I think the order of the relevant paragraphs in the conditions of travel probably confuses things as well…

 

[VauxhallandI]

How would it stand up in court if the person issued a penalty fare could prove he had brought a ticket on the train during his previous 10 journeys?

The guard always starts at the rear of the train. Most people on the marlow branch who attempt to get a free journey know this so sit at the front of the train. The person in question was towards the rear.

The revenue protection officer was saying something along the lines of "when you go to tesco, you pay for the food before you go home and cook it" when the person in question kept saying I've just finished a 12 hour shift I always buy a ticket on the train. The revenue protection officer said "so you've done this before?". I think he didn't give his details and we arrived at marlow and he just got up and left

If they had “brought a ticket on the train“ they are fine

 

[Sleepy]

Recently witnessed a person on GE mainline buying a ticket from guard from Furze Platt to Ipswich !! No TVM at origin was claimed, can anyone confirm this ?

 

[AlterEgo]

Recently witnessed a person on GE mainline buying a ticket from guard from Furze Platt to Ipswich !! No TVM at origin was claimed, can anyone confirm this ?

There is a ticket machine Furze Platt. Whether it was working is another question.

 

[Non Multi]

When I've used the branch, the TVMs I've seen have been 'card payment only'. If they only had cash, they could have easily purchased a ticket at Maidenhead instead.

I suspect that that passenger went on a route across London using the Central line from Ealing Broadway to Stratford, so had no gatelines to pass through!