Fireplace Arrangement at Branch Line Stations

[Andy873]

This is a very general question about the arrangement of fire places inside country branch line stations.

I'm trying to draw the internal layout of my favourite station (no prizes for guessing which!), however there are some basic questions about fireplaces:

Firstly, the attached diagram from me has three sections, two gable ends and a centre section. Now the left hand gable end with the SM's office and parcels office had a chimney stack on the roof in the centre of the gable end (section A)... This chimney stack had three chimney pots - does that mean this section had three fireplaces?

I can see that the fireplaces would be placed next to the dividing wall (which side I don't know but I've gone for the more likely here), but if there were three fires, where would the third one be?

Next question (section B), the central section had a dividing wall between the booking hall / waiting room and the 1st class gentlemen's waiting room, this chimney stack had two chimney pots - two fireplaces? I've spoken to Pete who worked there in 1962 / 63 and he confirms the layout of the booking hall and general waiting room (including the fireplace) is correct - but where would the 1st class gents waiting room fireplace be? off to one side in there? would fireplaces ever be back to back?

And finally (section C), really the same question as my second one, the 1st class ladies waiting room and ladies room - two chimney pots - two chimneys? and where would they be placed?

Of course it would be so much easier with the original plans.

Please see attached diagram

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[randyrippley]

A couple of general comments
1) one chimney pot & flue could serve multiple fireplaces. even from different floors. But each fireplace would only feed one pot.
2) generally a builder would build as few chimney stacks as possible, using them as a central strong point to tie in floor joists and roof timbers. To that end, internally-centred fireplaces would usually be set back-to-back on two or more sides of an internal chimney stack, serving two or more rooms.
3) some fireplaces will have been set against an external wall, usually a gable end. Unless the wall is exceedingly thick you should be able to see the route of the chimney flue from outside

 

[Andy873]

A couple of general comments
1) one chimney pot & flue could serve multiple fireplaces. even from different floors. But each fireplace would only feed one pot.
2) generally a builder would build as few chimney stacks as possible, using them as a central strong point to tie in floor joists and roof timbers. To that end, internally-centred fireplaces would usually be set back-to-back on two or more sides of an internal chimney stack, serving two or more rooms.
3) some fireplaces will have been set against an external wall, usually a gable end. Unless the wall is exceedingly thick you should be able to see the route of the chimney flue from outside

Thanks for that, it helps.

Yes I've seen the inverted V shape on the outside of terrace houses which join together vertically and up to the stack.

The back to back arrangement does solve most of the questions I asked, still wondering if there was a third fireplace somewhere in the left hand gable section (A)?

I do know the parcels section was street side and the SM's office platform side, the position of the horizontal internal wall between them - that's only a guess.

Attached is what I've got so far based on what's been mentioned.

 

[Snow1964]

Almost certainly there would have been a fire in the room lower left, which would have been on the back of the stationmasters stack.

I suspect there is no fourth fireplace because the other room was a store, and doesn't need a fireplace. Doesn't need heating and anyway wouldn't really want an unattended fireplace where coal or logs might roll out and set fire to stored goods

 

[Andy873]

Almost certainly there would have been a fire in the room lower left, which would have been on the back of the stationmasters stack.

Thanks.

What would this room be used for? someone to sit and wait to talk to the station manager perhaps?

Have re-drawn it with the third fireplace (attached):

 

[Snow1964]

Difficult to know what extra room was for, and its usage might have changed over time. Could be the fireplace was provided but not really used, especially if it got used as anything from a left luggage store to a lamp room.

As example some stations had telegraph offices, or platelayers mess rooms for a time

 

[randyrippley]

There would also have been a fireplace in the ticket office, I suspect back-to-back with one in the stationmasters office.
My guess is that the one you've got in the stationmasters office is misplaced

just looking a the photos on the disused stations website and it becomes apparent that there were in the 1950s FOUR chimney stacks, with one removed by the early 1960s

compare this from 1952/3: four stacks, nine pots (2,2,2,3)

with this from 1964: three stacks (2,2,3) - one of the two central stacks has gone

finally this photo of demolition clearly confirms the end stack had three pots

 

[Andy873]

There would also have been a fireplace in the ticket office, I suspect back-to-back with one in the stationmasters office.
My guess is that the one you've got in the stationmasters office is misplaced

just looking a the photos on the disused stations website and it becomes apparent that there were in the 1950s FOUR chimney stacks, with one removed by the early 1960s

compare this from 1952/3: four stacks, nine pots (2,2,2,3)

with this from 1964: three stacks (2,2,3) - one of the two central stacks has gone

finally this photo of demolition clearly confirms the end stack had three pots

Yes, I agree with you, surely there would have been a fireplace in the ticket office which would have been back to back with the one in the station manager's office.

I've amended to diagram as you mention (attached) - am I getting close do you think?

The forth chimney stack you mention was actually still there in 1964, but from the photos you can just about see it sticking out - but only just.

 

[Taunton]

Just a few words of architectural clarification.

The "stack" is the brick structure projecting upwards from the roof, with one or more earthenware "pots" which project from the top, from which the smoke actually issues. The "chimney" is the vertical structure within the building, leading up from the fireplaces to the stack, and the "flues" are the individual upwards passages contained within it from each fireplace.

Separate fireplace flues are not connected within the chimney, they are always run side-by-side to their pot, as otherwise issues such as smoke and even a flue fire can be transmitted from one room to another.

You can see the structure when terrace etc houses have had part demolished, and a subsequent gable end built against the remaining part, as can happen due to war damage, road widening, etc. Here's one in London, with separate chimneys from front and back of the house merging towards the stack :

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Presence or absence of such chimney works is an indication of whether the works were done before or after coal fires became redundant.

 

[randyrippley]

still missing a flue from the same stack as the porters office, presumably from the room you've labelled "stores"

 

[Andy873]

You can see the structure when terrace etc houses have had part demolished,

Yes, thanks, I've seen them on the side of terrace houses. But thanks for the clarification.

still missing a flue from the same stack as the porters office, presumably from the room you've labelled "stores"

That one was on my mind, there must be another fireplace as there are two chimney pots. Would you have a fireplace in in store room? - maybe I've go the internal layout wrong here for these two end rooms but I am sure of where the platform side window and entrance was for them.

The problem with this fourth stack is that it's not in the middle of the two rooms, it's off to one side (right side) of the end section...

 

[30907]

just looking a the photos on the disused stations website and it becomes apparent that there were in the 1950s FOUR chimney stacks, with one removed by the early 1960s

compare this from 1952/3: four stacks, nine pots (2,2,2,3)

with this from 1964: three stacks (2,2,3) - one of the two central stacks has gone

I think you've misinterpreted the photos: there was only ever one "central" stack between the two "gable" stacks, but there was a fourth at the Padiham (East) end serving the Porters' Room and ???.

 

[Gloster]

It was quite common to have fireplaces in the corner of a room, with another fireplace backing on to it in the adjacent corner of the next room. There could have been one or two more fireplaces in other adjacent rooms using the same chimney.

(Think of an internal wall running north-south, with half way along (meeting point X) another internal wall running west. There would be a fireplace in the adjacent corner south-west of X, another north-west of X, and a third on the other side backing on to the north-south wall. There could even be four fireplaces if there was another internal wall running east from X. (*)).

Remember that the railway was not generous so, with the possible exception of First Class waiting rooms, grates would be small. Nor would all be kept lit all day: no need to keep the one in the Station Master’s office lit all night, so try to arrange things so that it isn’t backing onto and warming a room that is used all night.

* - There are, just occasionally, times when I wish I was more computer literate and able to do diagrams. But these are only fleeting.

 

[Andy873]

Thanks everyone, good points you all make.

Question:
As the station manager, would you want internal doorways to the ticket office and parcels office. Presumably he would want easy access to the offices, and likewise for staff to see him? or would he want a private office?

I've re-worked the diagram again, in reply #7 (the colour photo of the demolition) I can see the east / west internal wall supporting the stack which as @30907 pointed out is off centre. To that end (and from the colour photo) I can see this internal wall is much closer to the platform side and therefore the SM's office was smaller than I first drew it.

I'm very happy with the external windows and external doors, I have enough photos available from several angles for that, it just these internal walls, doors and fireplaces I have to guess at...

 

[Gloster]

I don’t think that the location of the doors would be designed with the Station Master‘s convenience in mind. The minimum number that allow reasonably effective operation of the station would be provided: doors add to construction and maintenance costs, reduce security and increase drafts. I can think of plenty of stations where there were few doors between rooms and you had to go out onto the platforms to go from one office to another (I have worked at at least one). Additionally, although this would be a minor consideration on construction, many offices would have plenty of cupboards, shelves and ticket racks, and a door produces an area of wall where you can’t have these. It is quite possible that the only internal doors were to toilets and possibly from the General Waiting Room to the First Class or Ladies’ ones.

In general, Station Masters saw their office as private, a holy-of-holies, not a general office and had no wish to have the staff tramping through. And please note: the term is Station Master; Station Manager is a recent term.

 

[Andy873]

In general, Station Masters saw their office as private, a holy-of-holies, not a general office and had no wish to have the staff tramping through.

Thanks, based on your experience I've cut down the internal doors to a minimum.

And please note: the term is Station Master; Station Manager is a recent term.

Yes, my brain said master but my fingers typed manager!

Over time of course things changed, by the 1950's the 1st class ladies waiting room simply became the ladies room, with what looks like the 1st class accommodation gone.

but there was a fourth at the Padiham (East) end serving the Porters' Room and ???.

Next to the porters room at Padiham was the lamp room.

Without the original drawings I can only make an educated guess but I think I've got most of the internal walls correct now at least.

 

[randyrippley]

There's one thing that may need a rethink: access to the parcels office from the platform and/or booking office
Needs to be big enough for hand carts and sack trucks.
At the moment access is only via the ticket office, which wouldn't work very well

And what about "left luggage" - would that have its own storage or share the parcels area?

 

[Gloster]

Looking at the diagram in #16, I wonder if the door at bottom left led into a small lobby. Then it was either straight on into parcels store or right into the SM’s office. This provides direct access from the platform to the store, through which parcels would be moved once they had been unloaded from a train or when on their way to be loaded. This also kept the size of the SM’s office down to a reasonable one: at a small station he would not need a large room.

Left luggage at a small station would probably be stored in the parcels office, possibly on a separate shelf. This is another reason for access from the platform: this is better than staff having to go through the public access door at the front, which puts them on the other side of the counter.

 

[randyrippley]

Looking at the diagram in #16, I wonder if the door at bottom left led into a small lobby. Then it was either straight on into parcels store or right into the SM’s office. This provides direct access from the platform to the store, through which parcels would be moved once they had been unloaded from a train or when on their way to be loaded. This also kept the size of the SM’s office down to a reasonable one: at a small station he would not need a large room.

Left luggage at a small station would probably be stored in the parcels office, possibly on a separate shelf. This is another reason for access from the platform: this is better than staff having to go through the public access door at the front, which puts them on the other side of the counter.

That makes sense given the gate off the platform to the road next to the building

 

[Morayshire]

Thanks, based on your experience I've cut down the internal doors to a minimum.


Yes, my brain said master but my fingers typed manager!

Over time of course things changed, by the 1950's the 1st class ladies waiting room simply became the ladies room, with what looks like the 1st class accommodation gone.


Next to the porters room at Padiham was the lamp room.

Without the original drawings I can only make an educated guess but I think I've got most of the internal walls correct now at least.

This has been a fascinating thread to read.

Only comments I would make based on the last sketch are as follows:

1) Might just be me still being half asleep when writing this but I don't see a door from the ticket office to anywhere but the parcels office which in turn doesn't link to any other rooms with an external door. How do you get in and out of this part of the building?

2) Why is there a long passage to nowhere between the porters and the gents loo?

 

[Andy873]

This has been a fascinating thread to read.

Only comments I would make based on the last sketch are as follows:

1) Might just be me still being half asleep when writing this but I don't see a door from the ticket office to anywhere but the parcels office which in turn doesn't link to any other rooms with an external door. How do you get in and out of this part of the building?

2) Why is there a long passage to nowhere between the porters and the gents loo?

Yes it's interesting to try to re-create the layout of stations. No idea about the long passageway next to the porters room, a photo shows the chimney stack just offset from the end wall with the urinals so it's just a guess. See first B/W photo at #7.

Looking at the diagram in #16, I wonder if the door at bottom left led into a small lobby. Then it was either straight on into parcels store or right into the SM’s office. This provides direct access from the platform to the store, through which parcels would be moved once they had been unloaded from a train or when on their way to be loaded. This also kept the size of the SM’s office down to a reasonable one: at a small station he would not need a large room.

Left luggage at a small station would probably be stored in the parcels office, possibly on a separate shelf. This is another reason for access from the platform: this is better than staff having to go through the public access door at the front, which puts them on the other side of the counter.

but I don't see a door from the ticket office to anywhere but the parcels office which in turn doesn't link to any other rooms with an external door. How do you get in and out of this part of the building?

Having a door as suggested by @Gloster would seem to make sense for the reasons suggested. Entry in / out of the tickets office? don't know. I assumed (hate doing that) there was some sort of parcels counter near the public street entrance with a counter that could be lifted up together with the bottom half which could be swung open. Another option would be a door near the platform entry door. Lastly, as suggested, walk from the platform side through the parcels room and office into the ticket office.

The obvious thing regarding the ticket office entry is for me to ask Pete (who worked there in the ticket office in 1962), but he does tell me when he was there (for excursion trains only) most of the station was locked up so I don't know how much he remembers now. Pete by the way took the colour photo of the demolition. See #7.

I've made the SM's office smaller and made the north / south dividing wall full length of the left gable end, but looking at the colour demolition photo #7 I can't see any dividing wall - mind you it might have already been knocked down by the time of the photo?

Now the SM's office is smaller I could imagine his desk opposite the bay window, a good vantage point.

I've attached the amended diagram.