First Class declassified. Am I entitled to compensation with ALR?

[Essexman]

I have a First Class All Line Rover.

Today I travelled from Euston to Birmingham. There was no first class catering service. The reason given was that First Class was declassified due to LNER trains being cancelled.

There were only 24 passengers in First Class on leaving Euston and spare seats in both Standard and Standard Premium. There were some LNER passengers in First Class. They didn’t even bring drinks round. Passengers who had paid first class Avanti fares weren’t happy.

The Train Manager told another passenger that they could claim compensation as First Class declassified. Can I claim with my ALR ticket?

 

[transportphoto]

Worth asking Worst they can do is say no.

 

[Harratt4]

They will probably reply saying that catering is "complimentary" so no refund due but here is 25% off your next ticket. When you ask them if, as the catering is apparently not included the first class fare, what, exactly you are paying the extra for over Std Premium (beyond lounges at a very few stations on their network) they go quiet. That is what has happened to me on multiple occasions when they haven't been able to provide me with catering for various reasons. I remain unimpressed.

The specifics of your ticket type I will leave to others who know about these kinds of things.

 

[Haywain]

They didn’t even bring drinks round.

That's how things work in standard class, which is where you were if the service had been declassified.

Can I claim with my ALR ticket?

I guess you can but I've no idea how any compensation would be calculated.

 

[redreni]

I'm sure there's an old thread somewhere that specifies how Delay Repay is calculated against Rovers. Presumably that would be the formula to work out what the notional fare for the journey is?

Albeit the actual amount owing would be the difference between that fare and the standard class equivalent, rather than a percentage of the fare as it would be for Delay Repay. But the principle of identifying the notional fare should surely be the same, should it not?

 

[Essexman]

That sounds reasonable.
This is the last day of the ALR and the only day I’ve encountered problems.
C2C gate line member of staff refused to let me through this morning saying rovers not valid before 9.30.
Contrast to some of the train managers who have been very interested to talk about my journeys.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

C2C gate line member of staff refused to let me through this morning saying rovers not valid before 9.30.

That's not correct for an All Line Rail Rover in C2C land, is it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's not correct for an All Line Rail Rover in C2C land, is it?

Indeed it is not. There are no time restrictions for an ALR on C2C.

The All Line Rail Rover is NOT valid for boarding or alighting train services operated by Avanti West Coast, CrossCountry, East Midlands Railway, or LNER before 10:00 Mondays to Fridays at the following stations:

• Birmingham New Street
• Bedford
• London Euston
• London Kings Cross
• London St Pancras International
• Luton
• Luton Airport Parkway
• Milton Keynes Central
• Stevenage
• Watford Junction

No restrictions apply on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays.

All Line Rover (7 Days) | National Rail

Special offer: All Line Rover (7 Days). The portal into UK rail travel, including information on ticket purchase and promotions, train times and delays, and more.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Indeed it is not. There are no time restrictions for an ALR on C2C.

So, does the OP have any grounds for a valid complaint to C2C for this, as well as a separate one to Avanti, as discussed upthread?

 

[AlterEgo]

That sounds reasonable.
This is the last day of the ALR and the only day I’ve encountered problems.
C2C gate line member of staff refused to let me through this morning saying rovers not valid before 9.30.

So what did you do? That’s obviously wrong.

 

[Essexman]

I will be submitting a complaint to C2C to suggest better education of their staff is required.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Feb 2025 ==

I had to go to the booking office and wait while the lady looked up ALR conditions and confirmed it was valid, then get her to indicate this to the gate line staff member. Very nearly missed my train as a result of this delay.

 

[MrJeeves]

After pushing back with Avanti over the space of about 2 months, I ended up settling for a "50% my next Avanti journey" code, valid for four one-way journeys (or two return journeys, or one return journey with two passengers).

Would have preferred a free first class ticket :P

 

[Watershed]

They will probably reply saying that catering is "complimentary" so no refund due but here is 25% off your next ticket. When you ask them if, as the catering is apparently not included the first class fare, what, exactly you are paying the extra for over Std Premium (beyond lounges at a very few stations on their network) they go quiet. That is what has happened to me on multiple occasions when they haven't been able to provide me with catering for various reasons. I remain unimpressed.

Indeed - the notion that it's complimentary and thus no compensation is due when it's not provided is nothing short of a lie. The food/drink is the only point of differentiation with SP, so it is an essential part of first class.

I have had the same experience as @MrJeeves in being offered a 50% off discount code when I pushed back on the initial 25% offer. The third stage of "escalation" usually results in a 75% code being offered. Only when threatening to involve the Ombudsman did I finally once manage to get proper cash compensation - couched as a "gesture of goodwill" of course

The discount codes are only valid for "Avanti only" Advance tickets, bought through the Avanti site. You can't even apply a Railcard, so the 25% offer is frankly insulting to most passengers (it's worse than the 33.4% Railcard discount) and even 50% is only equivalent to 25% if you have a Railcard..

75% is starting to approach a reasonable level, but since I almost never buy Avanti Advance tickets (and certainly not overpriced first class ones) and want to use retailers that allow fee-free changes, it's again little use to me.

Avanti really need to rethink their first class declassification compensation policy because they are currently being two-faced - charging a huge supplement over Standard Premium when you buy a first class ticket, but being extremely reluctant to offer any cash compensation when they fail to provide the advertised first class service.

The NRCoT specifies the absolute minimum level of compensation you are entitled to, and it is a cash sum - so Avanti shouldn't try to fob people off with discount codes in the first place. Consumer law would generally dictate a higher level of compensation/partial refund, in any event

 

[MrJeeves]

The discount codes are only valid for "Avanti only" Advance tickets, bought through the Avanti site. You can't even apply a Railcard, so the 25% offer is frankly insulting to most passengers (it's worse than the 33.4% Railcard discount) and even 50% is only equivalent to 25% if you have a Railcard..

I was explicitly told I can use a Railcard!

• Your discount code is valid for a single or return trip, in First or Standard Class, for up to two passengers (both adults and children get a discount) on Advance fares only.
• This discount can be applied in conjunction with any applicable Railcard, but no other discounts or promotions can be used at the same time.

 

[Starmill]

If First Class is declassified you're automatically entitled to money back in cash. Same as if a train type that doesn't have any First Class is used. It's like it doesn't exist. If there is First Class, but it's not to your reasonable expectations based on the Avanti website and other marketing claims, then you are in a different, weaker, position. You may still have a claim, but it's not anything like as strong. Proceed accordingly!

 

[Adam Williams]

The discount codes are only valid for "Avanti only" Advance tickets, bought through the Avanti site. You can't even apply a Railcard, so the 25% offer is frankly insulting to most passengers (it's worse than the 33.4% Railcard discount) and even 50% is only equivalent to 25% if you have a Railcard..

I had exactly this experience and it was an incredibly frustrating back and forth.

The terms I got sent explicitly forbid a Railcard, unlike @MrJeeves' experience. Perhaps this has changed recently, but:



I had read somewhere that 25% can be handed out no-questions-asked almost, and anything beyond that needs intervention / escalation.



They're pretty tiny sums of money that they're squabbling over and trying their best not to pay out. Embarrassing approach to customer service.

 

[MrJeeves]

For some context, my complaint was for no first class service (though a box of various snacks was left in the end coach) which was entirely unadvertised on the Avanti JourneyCheck site. Had it been, I likely would have waited for the next service.

I'm relatively happy with the 50% + Railcard, but had it been excluding Railcard I would have been rather miffed and escalated further.

 

[Watershed]

For some context, my complaint was for no first class service (though a box of various snacks was left in the end coach) which was entirely unadvertised on the Avanti JourneyCheck site. Had it been, I likely would have waited for the next service.

I'm relatively happy with the 50% + Railcard, but had it been excluding Railcard I would have been rather miffed and escalated further.

It's certainly been to the exclusion of any Railcard discount whenever I've been offered a code.

Regardless of the exact percentages, a discount code feels like something that should be offered in addition to cash compensation, to encourage people to trust them and book again. I can't see any way in which it could be considered an acceptable form of compensation for the initial failure.

 

[MrJeeves]

It's certainly been to the exclusion of any Railcard discount whenever I've been offered a code.

No idea if my case was somehow different, but it definitely stacks with my code!

 

[thelongestroad]

IMO classification does not automatically mean catering cannot be served - if it's full and standing fair enough - but nothing stopping the TM and/or CH going through the train and verifying which pax are 1st and serving them.

 

[OscarH]

IMO classification does not automatically mean catering cannot be served - if it's full and standing fair enough - but nothing stopping the TM and/or CH going through the train and verifying which pax are 1st and serving them.

For actual declassification though (not just no catering), they're technically in a standard class seat, and entitled to the difference between the standard class fare and the first fare they paid.

Providing catering to them would muddy the waters there

 

[Essexman]

Avanti have got back to me very quickly and said they will send cheque for £25.60 which is difference between Standard and First Class single.
The cheapest flexible fares I can find for this train (10.26 Euston - Birmingham New St with Senior Railcard) are £32.15 Off Peak Single Standard Class and £92.50 Anytime single First Class, a difference of £60.35.
They haven't mentioned the lower amount being because I was using an All Line Rover.

 

[AlterEgo]

They should have pro-rated the value of your rover rather than using fares you didn't pay to work out the difference. How much did you pay for it?

 

[Essexman]

They should have pro-rated the value of your rover rather than using fares you didn't pay to work out the difference. How much did you pay for it?

£604.50

 

[Haywain]

Based on the prices of standard and first class All Line Rovers, it looks like they've given you just short of a day's difference between the two (rounded up, I make the difference £29.50 per day). Based on that I think the amount offered is quite fair.

 

[AlterEgo]

Based on the prices of standard and first class All Line Rovers, it looks like they've given you just short of a day's difference between the two (rounded up, I make the difference £29.50 per day). Based on that I think the amount offered is quite fair.

Agreed.

Declassification is a minimum of the difference between the price of the ticket held and the walk up standard class fare as per NRCoT (my emphasis):

31.1 If you have a first class Ticket and the train service you use is shown as offering first class accommodation at www.nationalrail.co.uk, but when you travel first class accommodation is not provided or is otherwise fully occupied, you may claim a refund. The minimum refund to which you will be entitled will be the difference between the price of the first class Ticket purchased and the cheapest valid standard class walk-up fare available on the service you used.

(Note that in many cases this will result in no refund due whatsoever for ALR holders!)

Avanti have been fair here by deciding to compensate as per my suggestion - the pro rated difference between the equivalent standard class ALR. Further, contrary to the standard delay repay/season ticket protocol - that despite its go-anywhere nature they have assumed the ALR was used only on one journey that day, and not treated as a return (which would have halved the difference due).

 

[Essexman]

Thanks.
£26.50 for missing my breakfast seems reasonable. Enough to pay for two more excellent TFW Big Breakfasts!

 

[Harratt4]

If First Class is declassified you're automatically entitled to money back in cash. Same as if a train type that doesn't have any First Class is used. It's like it doesn't exist. If there is First Class, but it's not to your reasonable expectations based on the Avanti website and other marketing claims, then you are in a different, weaker, position. You may still have a claim, but it's not anything like as strong. Proceed accordingly!

But on Avanti take away the catering and you have standard premium. So is that declassification by default? (Genuine question!)

 

[LowLevel]

For actual declassification though (not just no catering), they're technically in a standard class seat, and entitled to the difference between the standard class fare and the first fare they paid.

Providing catering to them would muddy the waters there

Indeed - back in the day where first class was rather more prestigious in my area than it is now unless it was a case of literally opening the flood gates to a full and standing train in disruption to squeeze as many people on rather than declassify first class wily train managers would just issue complimentary upgrades to appropriate passengers to use the vacant seat in first, thus losing some money on complimentary refreshments but saving far more in not having to compensate first class ticket holders.

 

[Starmill]

But on Avanti take away the catering and you have standard premium. So is that declassification by default? (Genuine question!)

I don't think so, because customers with tickets for standard premium wouldn't be permitted to sit there.

It's a little bit academic really because if all that happens is no food/drink at all, Avanti usually won't part with so much as 1p.