First Class on suburban routes

[Thebaz]

Wasn't sure which forum to put this in.

Are there certain Southern and other suburban routes on which 1st class is permanently declassified because some of the units operating the services don't have 1st class accommodation? I'm thinking Caterham and Tattenham lines for example - some of the services are formed of 455s which don't and some of 377s which do. You certainly wouldn't buy a season ticket for 1st class on these lines as you couldn't be guaranteed your train would have the accommodation.

 

[swt class 450]

Wasn't sure which forum to put this in.

Are there certain Southern and other suburban routes on which 1st class is permanently declassified because some of the units operating the services don't have 1st class accommodation? I'm thinking Caterham and Tattenham lines for example - some of the services are formed of 455s which don't and some of 377s which do. You certainly wouldn't buy a season ticket for 1st class on these lines as you couldn't be guaranteed your train would have the accommodation.

All Southern 377s on the Greater London - Epsom - Dorking - Horsham line have 1st class declassified. All 465/9s on Southeastern suburban services have 1st class declassified as well. I believe all 171s on the Brighton - Lewes - Eastbourne - Hastings - Ashford International line also have 1st class declassified.

 

[Thebaz]

The Southern passengers charter says this:

12.4 First Class
There are First Class seats on the following Great
Northern, Southern and Thameslink routes, but not
necessarily to all intermediate stations:
• Brighton to Bedford
• London to Cambridge and King’s Lynn
• London to Peterborough
• London to Gatwick, Brighton, Portsmouth Harbour,
Southampton Central, Ore, Littlehampton, Bognor
Regis, Uckfield and East Grinstead
Our timetables show which trains have First Class
accommodation.

So I looked at the printed timetable, which shows ALL trains on Caterham and Tattenham services as standard class only. Which *should* confirm what I suspected, but:

...I was able to book 1st class tickets on the Caterham service on the online booking system...

Clear as mud.

So if someone did actually book a 1st class ticket and then train that turned up didn't have 1st class are they entitled to a refund or part of their fare?

 

[swt class 450]

The Southern passengers charter says this:

12.4 First Class
There are First Class seats on the following Great
Northern, Southern and Thameslink routes, but not
necessarily to all intermediate stations:
• Brighton to Bedford
• London to Cambridge and King’s Lynn
• London to Peterborough
• London to Gatwick, Brighton, Portsmouth Harbour,
Southampton Central, Ore, Littlehampton, Bognor
Regis, Uckfield and East Grinstead
Our timetables show which trains have First Class
accommodation.

So I looked at the printed timetable, which shows ALL trains on Caterham and Tattenham services as standard class only. Which *should* confirm what I suspected, but:

...I was able to book 1st class tickets on the Caterham service on the online booking system...

Clear as mud.

So if someone did actually book a 1st class ticket and then train that turned up didn't have 1st class are they entitled to a refund or part of their fare?

Yes you can still buy 1st class tickets on lots of routes where 1st class is declassified. For example you can still buy 1st class tickets for all journeys between - Three Oaks / Doleham / Winchelsea / Rye / Appledore / Ham Street - even though 1st class is not in operation on any trains between these stations.

 

[DaiGog]

The SWT 158 in use with GWR.

 

[Deepgreen]

The regime of first class on GTR is in complete disarray. It has become completely unenforced since the industrial strife began and enforcement was extremely patchy long before then. Southern introduced the 377/6s and 377/7s (ostensibly suburban/'Metro' units but also used on non-'Metro' workings) with first class, but with no external makings - much pressure eventually resulted in them applying the normal yellow stripe and body-side legends, but only after several years. Even now, many people either ignore or are unaware of the status of the accommodation, and the seating would lead one to believe that it couldn't seriously be designated as first class anyway!

Then there is the confusion about what constitutes a suburban route - people boarding at East Croydon, Norwood Junction, Clapham Junction etc seem to assume that every train at those stations is suburban!

The lack of a consistent ticket availability policy just makes things even worse. OBSs were touted as being more available for 'customer service and ticket checking' than guards allegedly were - I have not seen a single OBS checking tickets (or even walking through the train) since the role was introduced.

 

[All Line Rover]

I strongly suspect that the OBSs are being deliberately instructed to hide in the rear cab so as to prove their "uselessness" and justify their withdrawal within a few years.

If I were a GTR season ticket holder (which, thankfully, I am not), I would still buy a first class season ticket but then claw back at least a majority of the premium over a standard class season ticket through the courts (or a credit card provider, if paying by credit card) on the basis of severely substandard first class accommodation having been provided.

 

[Thebaz]

There are legitimate questions about the 'quality' of the 1st class accommodation on offer - in some cases it's nothing more than a standard seat with a piece of kitchen roll draped on the headrest and there isn't even a door to separate it from the proletariat!

But the reason I ask is because a mate of mine was kicked out of "1st class" this morning on a train from Caterham.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are legitimate questions about the 'quality' of the 1st class accommodation on offer - in some cases it's nothing more than a standard seat with a piece of kitchen roll draped on the headrest and there isn't even a door to separate it from the proletariat!

Making it quite clear that Sarfeast 1st Class has one purpose and one only - it is basically a seat reservation fee.

 

[sk688]

Just a quick look question,

Is first class enforced on WLL services

I recall people saying it was only north of Watford, but I'm not sure

Does anyone know at what point 1st becomes declassified

 

[Joe Paxton]

Making it quite clear that Sarfeast 1st Class has one purpose and one only - it is basically a seat reservation fee.

SWT is kinda the exception to this.