first Kernow

Discussion in 'Buses & Coaches' started by RPI, 21 Jul 2014.

  1. Goldfish62

    Goldfish62 Established Member

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    I imagine it'll result in all the old Solos going, bar a handful for Mousehole, plus as you say the Darts, E200s and 16 of the E200MMCs, but of course it all depends on the extent of new commercial services.

    I imagine that the four Lizard Tridents will stay, displacing older Tridents.

    On the other hand, if FK wins most or all of the school contracts then it's all up in the air!
     
  2. fgwrich

    fgwrich Established Member

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    PCB Seems to have form in this, including sending Citairo's and long Plaxton SPDs on the 11 to Padstow.
     
  3. cnjb8

    cnjb8 Member

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    90 vehicles diverted from other parts of the country because contracts were awarded to one operator!
     
  4. Sillybusman

    Sillybusman New Member

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    Any mention of whats being sent to pcb?
     
  5. richw

    richw Established Member

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    I’m still curious whether it would pass with the CMA... basically blocking small independents from being able to succeed and wiping out independents work, hopleys, Summercourt Travel both spring to mind. Neither of which would have the resources for 130 vehicles
     
  6. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    No issues with the CMA. This process has been followed in the past in both Dorset and Powys. The smaller operators, it could be argued, could have acted as a cooperative or acted in partnership with either of the two main groups.
     
  7. Goldfish62

    Goldfish62 Established Member

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    I can see Mellor Strata-type vehicles being ordered. Would be very suitable for the Penwith routes among others.
     
  8. Goldfish62

    Goldfish62 Established Member

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    I don't see that it's an issue. With competitive tendering nothing is guaranteed and any operator can lose all their work. Even if the routes were awarded on an individual basis Hopleys and Summercourt could still have lost everything to a competitor.

    As it is the award appears to be introducing competition back into parts of Cornwall that haven't had it since the decline of Western Greyhound.
     
  9. 83G/84D

    83G/84D Established Member

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    Atlantic Coaster Solo 53251 was on service 47 earlier today whilst Solo 53503 was on services 38/39A.
     
  10. carlberry

    carlberry Established Member

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    How is it introducing competition? The routes are tendered so cant cover commercial ones.
     
  11. carlberry

    carlberry Established Member

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    From the council's view it's the same as them going out to contract for a country wide bin emptying service (and in Powys the contract went to a group that also did bins!).
     
  12. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    My interest is in how Cornwall Council came to the conclusion, assuming they did, that all tendered work should be subsumed into one contract, even if it might have overall been a bit cheaper than contracts for individual routes or groups of routes. To come to the conclusion then to award the sole contract to an operator that wanted significantly more for running the services than another credible operator could cause raised eyebrows, to say the least. Is it being done primarily for administrative convenience (Cornwall Council's, that is) and are the latter aware of the pitfalls that might ensue? The days of the District Auditor are, unfortunately, a distant memory now, and the more recent Audit Commission too, so local government being held to financial account is even more difficult than it once was, but it's still theoretically possible that external auditing of a local council can take place, and there's also the Local Omsbudman office, for what it's worth.

    Then of course it might be salient to know who at Cornwall Council was recommending certain actions in relation to the tendering contracts. It seemed to me in the recent past that the officers were the ones directly involved and you could contact them directly, as I did on a couple of occasions, with named individuals in charge. It looks a lot more opaque now, and suddenly its councillors, in particular 'cabinet members holding portfolios' (very grand!) who are the people quoted. I know they have to make the ultimate decisions, but how involved in the process of making the decisions are they and, frankly, do they know one end of a bus from the other? I've never believed that day-to-day involvement in running public transport is a job for politicians, a few shared by most of the top people in the companies running buses. In the days of widespread municipal transport some of the Councils/Corporations were bedevilled by locally influential politicians making things like routeing and frequency decisions for naked political reasons rather than letting the appointed management get on with the job. Yes, politicians have a right, even duty, to look at the overall framework and help public transport operators assist passengers in every way possible e.g. introducing more bus lanes and thinking of those passengers when pedestrianisation is proposed, but otherwise stay out!
     
  13. Goldfish62

    Goldfish62 Established Member

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    Most of PCB's Cornwall fleet will need replacing as the contract is awarded on Euro V/VI, so nothing older than 59 plate. The East Cornwall stuff can take full sized buses as can the Camborne/Helston/Lizard area routes. That's got to account for around 40 vehicles.

    Do we know what the 90 new buses are? It doesn't sound a lot for the whole group either. Have the orders actually been firmed up yet? presumably it doesn't include any electric buses that are due!
     
  14. freetoview33

    freetoview33 Established Member

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    There are a few things I do wonder about all this. Does the contact state Euro V/VI buses need to be used from Day 1?
     
  15. Goldfish62

    Goldfish62 Established Member

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    I would doubt that very much. I imagine there's a clause in the contract stating when they have to be in service by.
     
  16. MB162435

    MB162435 Member

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    Atlantic Coaster Solo 53251 and Lizard Solo 53254 on the 47 route today

    53251 currently on the 17:40 service from Truro to Troon Square, and 53254 on the 17:30 service from Troon Square to Carharrack

    Trident 33168 helpingout on the 27 route, currently on the 17:38 service from Bodmin Morrisons to St Austell
     
  17. richw

    richw Established Member

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    2024 I believe is the 5/6 deadline
     
  18. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    Apologies for taking so long to get back on this, but I've been pondering all this, digging into what I laughably call my memory but also going online with mixed results and even trying to find old info in my chaotic collection of magazines and ephemera. I've got some questions, but also some comments, based on my researches and trying not to be too opinionated.

    First, the questions. Do we know roughly how much more in actual or percentage terms PCB bid?
    Do First Kernow offer the same rates of pay to all driving staff? I don't mean extras for seniority, etc, but I thought First introduced a lower rate of pay for the drivers on the routes they won back on tender from Western Greyhound in Penwith and Kerrier (Helston/Lizard). That, at least, was what Buses magazine reported at the time and I don't remember it being denied by FK, and probably explained how they managed to pitch their bid lower. Has that now gone? 'Significantly higher rates per hour'? What, £1 or so - would be interesting to know.
    The close relationship bit may not have been true in recent times, but I'd say it was certainly true at the time quoted above, also when WG eventually collapsed. In fact, somewhere I have an actual physical letter(!) from Cornwall Council stating that was the case! 'Close working relationship' was the phrase used iirc. Again, from all I've read in recent years about councils, PTEs etc trying to be far more involved with so many aspects of bus operation without the responsibility of employing all the people involved or, usually, having to buy/lease the buses/depots, the only large group that's really signified they might go along with some of the more radical (controversial) ideas has been Go-Ahead, so that MIGHT also help to explain the decision to award in full to PCB.

    Others have queried your remarks on the profitability to FK of the tendered stuff, but it's a possibility that the figures could be tweaked in several ways, to give whichever impression was favourite!

    Now my comments purely on the Penwith scene i.e. all the routes currently running out of Penzance Bus Station. If all the evening and Sunday operations are non-commercial, that's basically the A1, A17, M6, T1 and U4, plus the T2 from St Ives. If all these were to continue much as now, that'd be several buses, especially on Sundays, to be sourced from the smaller buses Go Cornwall will be operating on their daytime routes in the area? Capacity might not be an issue in the evenings, but Sunday daytimes, also some early Mon-Fri workings? If people going to work and students get left behind there'll be letters in the local paper! That's also a lot of 'unsocial hours' to be worked by the drivers, whereas the better paid FK drivers won't have to work them any longer, assuming current arrangements. Of course, it could be for instance that FK register the TI/2s as commercial, for instance.

    Thoughts anyone?
     
  19. richw

    richw Established Member

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    @Busaholic all drivers except those in their first year are on the same rate as far as I’m aware.

    The tender was awarded on a 60:40 quality: price.
    PCB bid is £3m a year over budget!
     
  20. 317 forever

    317 forever Member

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    IIRC Cornwall Council were given powers to franchise the full network but declined to use these powers. They are going halfway by committing to tendering the full subsidy-requiring network to a single operator before choosing Go-Ahead.
     
  21. Goldfish62

    Goldfish62 Established Member

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    They never explicitly stated the intention to award to one single operator. I'm not convinced it was in their gameplan. More likely GA's bid was simply the most arttractive to the council.

    Going halfway to franchising would have been to introduce a quality contract regime.
     
  22. devonexpress

    devonexpress Member

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    Not necessarily. First could keep the E200MMC's and just pay CC what they owe for them and use it to replace other vehicles. I'd imagine this new contract is for brand new buses to a certain specification so it may be that the FK E200MMC's are not part of the plan. I know First D&C had 3 E400s which where purchased in part by Devon County Council, on loosing the X9 First sent them to Bristol, only to be ordered by DCC to bring them back to Devon immediately.
     
  23. richw

    richw Established Member

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    The three WA08 plates that are now in unibus Kernow livery from memory?
     
  24. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    It depends who owns them and the nature of the contract.

    Correct - 33420-2
     
  25. devonexpress

    devonexpress Member

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    Yes because the payments for them had completed and DCC had no controlling interest in them anymore.
     
  26. MB162435

    MB162435 Member

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    Truronian Plaxton Panther 20801 in use on the 101 service today, currently on the 11:11 service from The Eden Project to St Austell, due to a failure on the 30 Town service, with 44952 being drafted over to the 30 from the 101 to cover
     
  27. TechDan2002

    TechDan2002 Member

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    Trident 33113 and Tinner MMC 33456 on T3 duties today
     
  28. Goldfish62

    Goldfish62 Established Member

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    I see on their website PCB have started recruiting for Cornwall. They're inviting applications from existing Cornwall-based drivers, with details of employer and routes they currently drive.

    Advert states that pay and T&Cs have yet to be finalised.

    Unsurprisingly, a pretty clear intention to poach from FK.
     
  29. carlberry

    carlberry Established Member

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    The circumstances suggest that TUPE could apply for any drivers transferred over from a business that was effected by this (without they do it by themselves by answering an advert like that) and somebody did say that the First had stated that there would be no effect on jobs so any First driver would be better off waiting until somebody offers a better hourly rate!
     
  30. MB162435

    MB162435 Member

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    Tridents 33067 and 33068 on U4 duties today
     

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