First Public to Travel on the line

[Andy873]

How do you interpret the following:

"On Friday we had the Sunday school trips, and as a special provision they should start from Padiham station".

Now one week before (also a Friday) Col. Hutchinson inspected the section of line from Padiham to Rose Grove (on the East Lancs line) and indicated it was fit for the public. Does this mean those on the trips were actually the first members of the public to travel on this section of line even though the L&Y hadn't received the Board of Trade certificate yet?

How do you read this please?

 

[Rescars]

From what you have said, this may well be a plausible interpretation. It would be helpful to know more about the source of your quotation though. Is this the local press reporting accurately or merely wishful thinking? Also, are you able to find out from board minutes or similar when the BoT approval was formally confirmed and when the first timetabled passenger services ran?

 

[Andy873]

From what you have said, this may well be a plausible interpretation

It does indeed read that way to me.

It would be helpful to know more about the source of your quotation though. Is this the local press reporting accurately or merely wishful thinking?

It's from a local paper, all the other articles I have read by them are detailed and seem to be very accurate. It describes (on the same page) his visit on the 11th in detail.

are you able to find out from board minutes or similar when the BoT approval was formally confirmed and when the first timetabled passenger services ran?

No unfortunately I don't know when the BOT certificate was issued. The first official public trains started two weeks later on 1st September. The newspaper does report that Col Hutchinson "expressed no dissatisfaction" and that 1st September was to be the date of the first passenger train.

I can however give the time scale for his visit a year later for the rest of the line. Like this first inspection, it was a Friday. He had seven miles to inspect, two stations, numerous bridges and several signal boxes to look at. He completed this in just over three hours. Five days later (on the Wednesday) the certificate was issued.

Now that's a quick turn round. This first inspection would have been a quicker one, only one station, two boxes and thirteen bridges all on just a two mile stretch.

I could imagine a scenario:

The L&Y would have known about these Sunday school trips in advance as they were an annual event. It could be the L&Y sent a letter (or even faster a telegram) to the BOT asking if the inspection was successful, and if so, could they run these two trips on Friday the 18th. The reply could well have been "yes" regarding the inspection, and possibly "yes, as long as it's not before Thursday 17th" or "as long as you've received the certificate"...

The organisers of these two trips would have needed to know in advance, otherwise they would have had to organise horse drawn buses from the town to either Rose Grove or Burnley stations for their onward journey.

The article goes on to say that because they were starting from the station that
"they were more than usually attractive".

The two trips were 4am for Bangor, and 5.30am for Morecambe. I would say these two trips from the station would only be the two miles to Rose Grove, there they would change trains.

It really does look like the children and accompanying adults on these two trips were indeed the first public to travel the line. The larger than usual up take for the trips and the fact the meeting point was the railway station suggest so to me. Otherwise, why pick the station as a meeting point?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It would be helpful to know more about the source of your quotation though.

The date is from the last quarter of 1875 presumably?

 

[Andy873]

The date is from the last quarter of 1875 presumably?

Burnley Gazette, Saturday 19 August 1876. 1 day shy of two weeks before the first passenger trains.

 

[Rescars]

Does anyone know what happened following BoT inspections in the 1870s? AIUI, the BoT Inspecting Officer was not required to give active consent to the opening of a line, but could prevent its opening if he wasn't satisfied with the build quality or safety arrangements. If this was the case, presumably traffic could start to run once the inspection was completed, provided the Inspecting Officer raised no objections. I wonder what written confirmation was given and to whom, if any.

In this case, perhaps the company planned a short delay before commencing regular passenger services, whilst running freight only to consolidate the p-way? If this was the situation, it is possible that the company would have been rather more relaxed about running Sunday School excursions before the start of the regular passenger timetable.

 

[Snow1964]

In this case, perhaps the company planned a short delay before commencing regular passenger services, whilst running freight only to consolidate the p-way? If this was the situation, it is possible that the company would have been rather more relaxed about running Sunday School excursions before the start of the regular passenger timetable.

My thinking too, especially if it was just 2 miles of new track. Might have treated it more as a branch with one engine in steam (especially if the two trains were 90 minutes apart). Even at just 10mph on newly laid track would have covered the 2 miles in 12 minutes

Probably figured the publicity meant there was big value in couple of excursions, as a way to announce railway was opening. In 1870s was still fairly high proportion of population who couldn't read and write, so word of mouth, or announcement from church pulpit week before was probably best advertising.

 

[Andy873]

Does anyone know what happened following BoT inspections in the 1870s?

A very good question, I wonder if anyone knows?

I wonder what written confirmation was given and to whom, if any.

The BoT would normally just take his recommendations, he would almost certainly inform them by a letter or a telegram. And you do have to wonder what level of secrecy (if any) was used?

Let's look at the inspection first:

He was accompanied by the engineer of the permanent way, the engineer of the line, and head manager of passenger traffic representing the L&Y, and were on hand to answer any of his questions. The article also says he checked everything in "minute detail".

Then there's the safety aspect:

The L&Y (and no doubt most other railway companies) would try to second guess him. Leaving Padiham for Rose Grove the line went up a 1 in 40 for 1.25 miles. Three quarters of the way up a catch point was placed on the down line, now you could argue that makes sense, but if the L&Y hadn't put that catch point in he would have said no outright.

Now I know (on his second inspection for the rest of the line) he was invited to an evening meal, perhaps an attempt to get confirmation out of him?

In this case, perhaps the company planned a short delay before commencing regular passenger services, whilst running freight only to consolidate the p-way?

By the time of this first inspection the LYR had been running freight trains for 14 months, as you say, to consolidate the permanent way.

it is possible that the company would have been rather more relaxed about running Sunday School excursions before the start of the regular passenger timetable.

Perhaps this was an excuse to run a couple of trial passenger trains before the regular service started? also an opportunity to check staff performance with live passengers?

 

[Rescars]

Now I know (on his second inspection for the rest of the line) he was invited to an evening meal, perhaps an attempt to get confirmation out of him?

I don't think you should read anything improper in this. Local management would have been with the Inspector all day and were on home turf. As this was the second inspection, probably everyone had met each other before. It would have been a friendly thing to arrange a meal at the end of the day. No doubt this would have provided an opportunity to iron out any minor points in a less formal setting and given some immediate comfort to the company's representatives that all was going well. If the offer of dinner was turned down, that might have indicated that things weren't going to end up happily!

As a matter of trivia, Major Marindin and Lt Col Von Donop, two of Hutchinson's successors, were both remarkably competent footballers. Marindin topped his footballing career by being elected President of the FA. There might have been other things to talk about over dinner when the topic of railways became exhausted!

 

[Andy873]

My thinking too, especially if it was just 2 miles of new track. Might have treated it more as a branch with one engine in steam (especially if the two trains were 90 minutes apart). Even at just 10mph on newly laid track would have covered the 2 miles in 12 minutes

Plenty of time then to drop off the first passengers at Rove Grove and return back down the line ready for the second one.

Probably figured the publicity meant there was big value in couple of excursions, as a way to announce railway was opening. In 1870s was still fairly high proportion of population who couldn't read and write, so word of mouth, or announcement from church pulpit week before was probably best advertising.

Good free publicity. It certainly would have been a good signal to the locals that this section was indeed opening in just a few days.

As a matter of trivia, Major Marindin and Lt Col Von Donop, two of Hutchinson's successors, were both remarkably competent footballers. Marindin topped his footballing career by being elected President of the FA. There might have been other things to talk about over dinner when the topic of railways became exhausted!

A nice bit of trivia there!

I don't think you should read anything improper in this. Local management would have been with the Inspector all day and were on home turf. As this was the second inspection, probably everyone had met each other before.

Yes, that was my first thought too, turns out we're wrong. You had me curious with this one so I compared the LYR representatives for the two inspections. Only one was the same, it seems from the titles of the other reps on the second visit were far more senior. Not surprising really when you consider that a positive inspection would mean the whole line could open to the public.

Are we then all in agreement that the Sunday school trips were indeed the first public trains to run? If so, it's a piece of the line's history that's never been recorded - except in the newspaper article.

 

[Rescars]

Are we then all in agreement that the Sunday school trips were indeed the first public trains to run?

Seems to be the case. Interesting to reflect that it holiday excursionists were the first and last passengers to use this line.

Only one was the same, it seems from the titles of the other reps on the second visit were far more senior.

Aha! Sufficiently senior to have the authority to extend a dinner invite? Perhaps the officials on the first inspection were so junior that an invite extended by them might have been seen as an impertinence?!

 

[Andy873]

Aha! Sufficiently senior to have the authority to extend a dinner invite? Perhaps the officials on the first inspection were so junior that an invite extended by them might have been seen as an impertinence?!

Yes, it looks like the LYR brought out some of their top brass for this second visit.

The dinner was held at the Bridge Inn, a more up market place to wine and dine. Hutchinson probably stayed the night there, and as if by magic, there was a post office just seven doors down.

I could imagine (based on another article) that when he completed his second inspection and got off at Padiham station, the large crowd that had gathered (hopefully) were clapping and cheering him? From there he'd be taken to the Bridge Inn. He would have had plenty of time then to write his report, walk to the post office and get it sent. With the job done, he could now relax and have a break before the dinner. - Perhaps that was the course of events...

Seems to be the case. Interesting to reflect that it holiday excursionists were the first and last passengers to use this line.

The strange thing to me is that there were no celebrations for the official opening, I've seen plenty photographs of the first passenger trains on other lines, here, it simply didn't happen?

 

[Snow1964]

The strange thing to me is that there were no celebrations for the official opening, I've seen plenty photographs of the first passenger trains on other lines, here, it simply didn't happen?

Not going to be able to take photos of a 4am train in the dark with 1870s photographic plates

 

[Andy873]

Not going to be able to take photos of a 4am train in the dark with 1870s photographic plates

The 4am and 5.30am trains were school trip specials, I was talking about the first public train service along the whole branch, Monday 15th October 1877 which left Rose Grove at 7.35am.