Flight Training/Private Flying

[Bromley boy]

But costs have been the limiting factor thus far. Done a few lessons but can’t afford to keep up anything meaningful at the moment. I must say I didn’t appreciate the difference in running costs between a “spam can” and a cirrus though!

(Apologies in advance for the length, I rather like talking about this subject )

The cost of getting a PPL is undoubtedly high (although can be reduced by getting an NPPL, microlight PPL etc.)

Once you have that maintaining it isn’t that expensive, and people generally find that time and lack of currency are limiting factors. Flying is a very perishable skill: if you aren’t current you won’t fancy that sporting crosswind, or worse vis than you expected, so you’re more likely to throw it away, leading to a vicious circle of the less you do, the less you will be inclined to do.

This can lead to the repeated frustration of blocking a day out to go flying, booking an aircraft, planning a trip, driving to the airfield (1hr away in my case) only to find the weather simply doesn’t improve as forecast and you end up having a coffee and going home. The far more stressful alternative (I’ve done more than once) is taking off and rapidly wishing you were back on the ground...

The old aviation adage it’s better to be down here wishing you were up there, than up there wishing you were down here is an accurate one!

In terms of touring it can be done, but U.K. weather makes long distance VFR daylight flying difficult during the winter months especially. It isn’t a reliable way to get from A to B (and back again) when you want to.

Serious touring in high performance aircraft is expensive - these things are enormously expensive to buy and use a lot of fuel - a Cirrus, for example, costs £400-700k to buy and uses 12 gallons of fuel + per hour. Therefore hiring one is never going to be cheap. It will cruise* at 160kts**+ but to really use that performance and to use flying as a means of getting from A to B reliably you would need an instrument rating (and to maintain IMC competence).

A 172 or PA28 costs a lot less to buy, fuel and maintain yet still has 4 seats and cruises at 100kts, which is quick enough for most purposes.

Overall it’s a great hobby but you always need to have an objective to aim for, whether that’s mastering mountain flying, an IMC rating (IR(R) as it’s now called), aerobatics, doing a commercial license or whatever. Boring holes in the sky and the “£200 burger run” you’ve done ten times before quickly becomes boring and expensive.

Yes that and the shifts I would imagine make time for any hobby I wondered how you manage to fit it in?

Not too much of an issue. The good side of shift work is you get a fair bit of time off .


*Aircraft “cruise” at an airpseed (speed relative to the body of air they fly in), as opposed to groundspeed (which is speed over the ground, as per a car speedometer).

If the wind is 20kts, an aircraft cruising at 100kts airspeed will have a groundspeed of 80kts flying directly into wind, 120kts flying directly away from the wind - this makes a huge difference to how long a trip out or back can take (and therefore fuel burned).

**1 knot (nautical mile per hour) is 1.15 statute miles, in case anyone is wondering.

EDIT: I’ve asked the mods to split this into a pilots’ thread, in general discussion.

@Economist, @Emmsie, way @SPADTrap, @Dave1987, @H4R, @AlterEgo, are you with me? Feel free to contribute and we can see whether it takes off, or simply reaches “coffin corner”, stalls and crashes and burns.

Fly well, guys (and gals) .

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I've just had a glorious (and rather uncomfortably warm!) bash around my local airfield's circuit, getting checked out in a PA28. I did my PPL in a Cessna 152 so it's somewhat of a change, what with the noticeably improved performance and the severely reduced need to use carburettor heat!

 

[Puffing Devil]

Happy days! I have/did have a PPL in times gone by with a Night and IMC rating. Unfortunately, time and children saw then end of that - I may go back to Microlights in a few years to get some more air time.

 

[Economist]

British Gliding Association Bronze plus Cross Country for me, though I'd like to do a PPL starting early next year.

I did start an NPPL conversion from my gliding side of things (the club has a Falke motorglider which, at the time, was available for £90/hour). However, I started as a trainee train driver and really sisn't fancy trying to learn two things at once. I last flew in the Falke in February and even then on one or two occasions tried to increase power by pulling the lever back!

The Falke isn't the most comfortable aircraft, the vibration from the engine reverberates around the aircraft much more than a C152 or PA28. There's only one cushion, so you end up with either a sore backside or sore back after an hour. The rate has gone up by 50% for NPPL training so financially it's not so attractive. I'm tempted by the modular route towards an airline career too.

I face a bit of a dilemma with two options. Firstly, complete an NPPL(SLMG) in the Falke, subsequently gain an NPPL(A) rating and ultimately convert to whatever replaces a JAA licence (bearing in mind that the Falke instructor is only qualified to teach NPPL so the dual hours probably won't count). Secondly, go down the JAA route from scratch in a C152.

In theory there is a thkrd eoute which would involve going for one of the airline cadet programme (only the Aer Lingus one is affordable), however cadet recruitment timescales don't really seem to allow for train driving notice periods.

 

[Bromley boy]

Glad to see the thread has managed to unstick and get off the ground - renewed thanks to @yorkie .

I've just had a glorious (and rather uncomfortably warm!) bash around my local airfield's circuit, getting checked out in a PA28. I did my PPL in a Cessna 152 so it's somewhat of a change, what with the noticeably improved performance and the severely reduced need to use carburettor heat!

Sounds fantastic - where is your local airfield?

Out of interest, what was the reason for less use of carb heat in a PA28 v C152? I would be very careful with that - and when you do use it, give it a good 15-20 second blast.

Lycoming engines (as per 160hp 172/PA28) are prone to carb icing - I revalled my SEP rating the other day with an examiner who is a “character” to say the least - smokes like a chimney, swears like a sailor, 15,000+ hours and is a current RYR captain (formally training captain). The bloke is so relaxed in an SEP that he doesn’t even bother strapping himself in on the basis that “they’re uncomfortable and wouldn’t be any use if you needed them anyway”. Probably true.

When it came use of carb heat, he was all over me like a rash and emphasised always flying a circuit close enough to the runway that you can glide in. You’re most likely to lose the engine on approach - don’t fly a bomber circuit and drag it in on the engine.

To prove that point when were on long final he pulled the throttle back and said “the engines just failed, what are you going to do?” - the sink rate is terrifying and we would have pancaked into the woods rather than making the 2000m runway I was (I thought) perfectly approaching. As he emphasised, three degree approaches are for airliners and multi engined aircraft. Lesson learned as far as I’m concerned.

(Reval was successful, my flying was described as “excellent” and a few trips have been duly planned over the next few weeks )

I face a bit of a dilemma with two options. Firstly, complete an NPPL(SLMG) in the Falke, subsequently gain an NPPL(A) rating and ultimately convert to whatever replaces a JAA licence (bearing in mind that the Falke instructor is only qualified to teach NPPL so the dual hours probably won't count). Secondly, go down the JAA route from scratch in a C152.

It’s now an EASA licence, as I found out, expensively, last year when I renewed mine . Do hours in the Falke count as hour building (I assume it’s classed as a “group A” aircraft (as they were formally known)? That’s something to double check.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Sounds fantastic - where is your local airfield?

I won't post here as otherwise it's rather identifying (!) but, like most modern flying schools, it's an old WWII base.

Out of interest, what was the reason for less use of carb heat in a PA28 v C152? I would be very careful with that - and when you do use it, give it a good 15-20 second blast.

I think it's to do with the varying arrangement of the carburettor and air intake in the PA28 vs the 152. I read up about it a while back... even on a warm, slightly humid day like today (well, it was a lot more humid earlier!) - a prime suspect for carb icing - there is a greatly reduced chance of icing.

When in the 152 the rule of thumb was always that if you reduced the power below about 2000 you should put on carb heat - in the PA28 it's part of downwind checks and the like, but it's only done at occasional intervals other than that.

 

[Economist]

Thanks, I'll have to ask the gliding club about that, not sure whether it's permit or not. I believe it's good for hour building from a paperwork perspective, though not great for touring at a 60-70 knot cruise.

I've got quite a while to have a good think about what I want to do licence-wise, never ceases to a aze me how many licence tyoes are available and what all the different permutations for crossing over from one to another are. It would be nice if the CAA had some sort of licence conversion requirement calculator ln their website.

 

[Bromley boy]

I think it's to do with the varying arrangement of the carburettor and air intake in the PA28 vs the 152. I read up about it a while back... even on a warm, slightly humid day like today (well, it was a lot more humid earlier!) - a prime suspect for carb icing - there is a greatly reduced chance of icing.

When in the 152 the rule of thumb was always that if you reduced the power below about 2000 you should put on carb heat - in the PA28 it's part of downwind checks and the like, but it's only done at occasional intervals other than that.

That’s interesting. I have a few hours on the PA28 (actually I completed my PPL on it) but haven’t flown one for a few years. It’s probably a better tourer than the 172, feels more like a “grown up” aircraft, but the 172 is less slippery and easier to get in and out of short fields.

Re. carb heat in the 152/172 I was originally taught to put the carb heat in on short final at 200 feet (to give max engine power in case of a go around). That teaching style seems to have been abandoned and the instructors at my current club insist on it being applied during the pre landing check and left in until post landing checks...

 

[Bromley boy]

Thanks, I'll have to ask the gliding club about that, not sure whether it's permit or not. I believe it's good for hour building from a paperwork perspective, though not great for touring at a 60-70 knot cruise.

Just make sure the hours in the Falke count towards the CPL requirements (which, from memory, are 200 hours total time when you apply for the license, with 100 hours P1).

If you did your hour building in a microlight, or similar, you’d have to do it all again!

 

[Bromley boy]

The below video is excellent (as is the rest of the channel). The Flying Reporter is also not above admitting to his mistakes and sharing them - the mark of a good pilot.

I have done this exact trip myself, also in a PA28, soon after completing my PPL at Biggin.

The Channel looks rather menacing from FL50 which was the maximum we could cross at, IIRC.

EDIT: we crossed Dover - Cap Griz Nes giving the shortest possible over water crossing - the video shows the alternative routing from LYD, which is a (slightly) linger over water distance.

 

[WeGoAgain]

...The Channel looks rather menacing from FL50...

I always though FL's started from FL180...

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I always though FL's started from FL180...

Depends on the country! FL180 is the transition level for some countries - here it is rather lower as we don't have any terrain anywhere near that high.

 

[WeGoAgain]

Depends on the country! FL180 is the transition level for some countries - here it is rather lower as we don't have any terrain anywhere near that high.

Ahhhh,
Thanks for that. I thought it was a set standard.