"Foreign" visitors to loco works - was there any rhyme or reason?

[vidal]

I seem to remember that some loco works used to work on units or locos that were well away from their normal allocated areas. For example, Southern EMUs went to Horwich for painting- necessitating a long distance journey for a job that could potentially be done locally. Was there any reason for this? Division of work so that all sheds got some work? A special bit of equipment or knowledge not available anywhere else?

James

 

[6Gman]

I presume Horwich would have expertise in DC EMU work because of its work with Merseyside units. Presumably recruiting and retaining skilled staff would be easier than in Eastleigh or Ashford so perhaps it made sense to send some work there?

 

[geoffk]

I seem to remember that some loco works used to work on units or locos that were well away from their normal allocated areas. For example, Southern EMUs went to Horwich for painting- necessitating a long distance journey for a job that could potentially be done locally. Was there any reason for this? Division of work so that all sheds got some work? A special bit of equipment or knowledge not available anywhere else?

James

The last steam overhauls at Horwich were in 1964, but work continued on other rolling stock, including wagons, until 1983. Was it the run-down of freight wagon numbers which sealed its fate, along with Shildon?

 

[Romsey]

Odd movements like Southern EMU's to Horwich or refurbishment of 4CEP's at Swindon were done to use available workshop capacity. Remember that in the 1970's and early 1980's the workshops were run by British Rail Maintenance Limited as part of the BRB. Costs were important but there was no internal market for works overhauls or competitive tendering. That only started with sectorisation in the late 1980's.

 

[Carlisle]

Remember that in the 1970's and early 1980's the workshops were run by British Rail Maintenance Limited as part of the BRB.

The British Rail Maintenance Limited (light repair sector) didn’t exist until the late 1980s, previously they’d all been part of British Rail Engineering Limited

 

[Romsey]

The British Rail Maintenance Limited (light repair sector) didn’t exist until the late 1980s, previously they’d all been part of British Rail Engineering Limited

Thanks for the correction,just trying to rember which signs applied when at Eastleigh works!

 

[geoffk]

Actually this practice started in steam days. There appears to have been a comparison of repair costs between Horwich and Eastleigh in the mid 60s, as several LMR-based locos were sent to Eastleigh while Horwich received locos of the same class (class 4 2-6-0s) from the Southern (see link below). Late in the day Eastleigh was overhauling Stanier 8Fs and BR 9Fs from "foreign" sheds as far away as Immingham, while Swindon turned to overhauling ex-LMS 2-6-0s to make up for the loss of work from the diminishing GWR fleet.

Nine Elms Locomotive Shed - Locomotives

 

[Carlisle]

The last steam overhauls at Horwich were in 1964, but work continued on other rolling stock, including wagons, until 1983. Was it the run-down of freight wagon numbers which sealed its fate, along with Shildon?

Yes & a realisation that component exchange overhaul was cheaper & quicker at regular maintenance depots so main works visits were considerably reduced & some closed. Many of the major bus operators made similar changes around this period.

 

[Magdalia]

There is a lot of history here!

Under the British Transport Commission (BTC) the railway workshops were still part of the British Railways regions. They were first managed as a National resource after a reorganisation announced by the BTC in autumn 1962 but implemented by the British Railways Board (BRB) in 1963. British Railways Engineering Limited (BREL) then became a separate legal entity in 1970.

So sending locomotives and other rolling stock on long journeys for maintenance and overhaul only becomes significant after the 1962/63 reorganisation.

Actually this practice started in steam days. There appears to have been a comparison of repair costs between Horwich and Eastleigh in the mid 60s, as several LMR-based locos were sent to Eastleigh while Horwich received locos of the same class (class 4 2-6-0s) from the Southern (see link below). Late in the day Eastleigh was overhauling Stanier 8Fs and BR 9Fs from "foreign" sheds as far away as Immingham, while Swindon turned to overhauling ex-LMS 2-6-0s to make up for the loss of work from the diminishing GWR fleet.

Nine Elms Locomotive Shed - Locomotives

and this is one of the few examples of it affecting steam locomotives.

Once workshops became a central resource there was an element of balancing out workload between sites and also a degree of specialisation. Sometimes blocks of work would be reallocated between sites a good example being the transfer of class 50 overhauls from Crewe to Doncaster in the mid 1970s.

The boundary between what was done by central workshops and what was done by the regions could also be a bit fuzzy. A good example here is Stratford, which remained with the Eastern Region in the 1962/63 reorganisation, but its heavy lifting equipment enabled it to do things that would otherwise have required a visit to a central workshop.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I remember seeing the 27s that came to Swindon.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Before the 1962/3 takeover by the Workshops Division, there was a thing called “Regional Assistance”, which was a means by which surplus capacity could be utilised to help another region.

As a precursor to the Workshops Division ceasing steam work at certain shops and re-allocating their work to others (such as Derby to Darlington and Crewe, Horwich to Swindon and Eastleigh, St Rollox to Cowlairs), there was some moves to concentrate the standard BR classes to certain works, WR works ceasing classified work on theirs with Crewe and Derby being the then beneficiaries.

For a time WR pushed some of their overhaul work on their own 57xx class pannier tanks to Eastleigh, which was then overhauling the SR ones. Bizarrely WR also pushed a handful to Beyer Peacock for them to overhaul!

Stratford Works escaped the workshop cull by being retained by ER as a “District Repair Shop”. Although it didn’t do classifieds again until the late 1980’s CEM era, it built up a fearsome reputation for tackling difficult repair work.

 

[70014IronDuke]

One example - sort of - was the fact that Derby overhauled the LT&SR 3-cylinder Stanier tanks (425xx series).

This was an inheritance of the days when this route was LMS, and I presume, if and when anyone thought to change it, they would find Stratford works very unwilling to take on the extra work in the 1950s, due to shortage of labour.

This lasted until electrification of the line in 62, when these locos were pretty much withdrawn en masse.

 

[Strathclyder]

Not sure if this really counts, but it's worth mentioning all the same I think.

In their latter years, the Metro-Vick Co-Bos, all of which based at Carlisle post-December 1966 after Barrow lost it's mainline loco allocation, infrequently found themselves at Reddish Depot for tyre-turning and other light maintenance work. Was there any particular reason for this?

Class 28 | D5712-Y-Reddish-260568-GE

'Metrovick' Class 28 Co-Bo D5712 seen on 9C Reddish depot on 26th May 1968. It was withdrawn in the September of that year and subsequently cut up at J.Cashmore, Great Bridge during December 1969.

railphotoprints.uk

(attached image copyright of Gordon Edgar)

 

[Taunton]

For a time WR pushed some of their overhaul work on their own 57xx class pannier tanks to Eastleigh, which was then overhauling the SR ones. Bizarrely WR also pushed a handful to Beyer Peacock for them to overhaul!

I don't remember hearing that before. The Dornoch branch pannier tanks from the far north of Scotland, 1646/49, sent there brand new in about 1950, were solemnly hauled back and forth in a freight train to Swindon when overhaul was needed.

 

[Magdalia]

In their latter years, the Metro-Vick Co-Bos, all of which based at Carlisle post-December 1966 after Barrow lost it's mainline loco allocation, infrequently found themselves at Reddish Depot for tyre-turning

Tyre turning is an interesting one. In the 1960s there were only a few lathes for tyre turning diesel locomotives. The Eastern Region only had one, at Stratford, until the mid 1960s, when another was installed at Doncaster (Carr Loco not the Plant).

 

[Helvellyn]

Not mentioned yet is that overhaul of the Class 50s (as well as their subsequent refurbishment) when based on the WR was done not at Swindon but Doncaster! Not sure if this was because initially Doncaster was also overhauling the Class 55s so there might have been some common EE equipment/familiarity (obviously completely different power plants) or that even with the loss of the hydraulics BREL didn't want to replace that work at Swindon.

Horwich used to overhaul the 313s as well as the Merseyrail 507s/508s. The latter was a continuation of the previous overhauling of the 502s/503s, so I suspect the third rail familiarity was part of this. I think it was mentioned above that EPB refurbishment might have been partly influenced by this but spare workshop capacity was surely also part of this (Swindon not exactly having third rail unit knowledge before the CEP/BEP refurbishment).

Stratford broke Crewe's near monopoly on AC locomotive overhauls from the mid 1980s with a number of Class 86s passing through for overhaul.

 

[Magdalia]

Not mentioned yet is that overhaul of the Class 50s (as well as their subsequent refurbishment) when based on the WR was done not at Swindon but Doncaster!

Sometimes blocks of work would be reallocated between sites a good example being the transfer of class 50 overhauls from Crewe to Doncaster in the mid 1970s.

By then the Western Region already had classes 37 and 31 going to Doncaster for classified and unclassified repairs.

Swindon ceased classified repairs on main line locomotives after the end of the hydraulics.

 

[Clarence Yard]

By the mid sixties the pattern of classes being overhauled at specific works (as opposed to being shopped at their nearest “regional” works) was well established so Swindon wasn’t going to get a sniff of any overhaul work on any class of diesel electric main line locos, let alone the locally based cl.50’s.

Prior to the CEM era, there was a frequent rebalancing of such work between Glasgow, Derby, Doncaster and Crewe with classified loco overhaul work at Swindon (post the hydraulics) being confined to shunters. Eastleigh work in this era tended to stay the same.

A word about the two 16xx pannier tanks that went to ScR. 1646/9 didn’t get any overhauls after their transfer north - their last were done on the WR prior to transfer - 1646 (a HG) at Wolverhampton on 28/06/56 and 1649 (a HG) at Swindon on 22/05/56.

 

[Taunton]

Horwich used to overhaul the 313s as well as the Merseyrail 507s/508s. The latter was a continuation of the previous overhauling of the 502s/503s, so I suspect the third rail familiarity was part of this. I think it was mentioned above that EPB refurbishment might have been partly influenced by this but spare workshop capacity was surely also part of this

Horwich did all the North-West emus, even the Lancaster-Morecambe-Heysham units and the Glossop ones, so not confined to third rail or even DC only. When living in The Wirral in 1960s-70s I used to see the 503s at Birkenhead North with match wagons each end, which were hauled via Helsby-Warrington to/from the works.

 

[Helvellyn]

Horwich did all the North-West emus, even the Lancaster-Morecambe-Heysham units and the Glossop ones, so not confined to third rail or even DC only. When living in The Wirral in 1960s-70s I used to see the 503s at Birkenhead North with match wagons each end, which were hauled via Helsby-Warrington to/from the works.

Did it do the 304s as well? For some reason I thought they went to Wolverton, but that might have been after Horwich closed.

 

[Enthusiast]

Perhaps a little off topic but I believe that Romney, Hythe & Dymchurch Railway locomotives were overhauled at Ashford works before closure.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

In their latter years, the Metro-Vick Co-Bos, all of which based at Carlisle post-December 1966 after Barrow lost it's mainline loco allocation, infrequently found themselves at Reddish Depot for tyre-turning

As suggested above, I doubt the old steam shed at Kingmoor had a suitable lathe that early on (in diesel terms) whereas Reddish with it's history of EM1 electrics will have had all the necessary set up (I would guess). Even today there are similar situations of traction types visiting other locations for tyre turning: take Salisbury's 158/9's, they go to Wimbledon. But in this case it is largely due to there being no physical space at Salisbury depot for a wheel lathe.

As for pure variety (and interest) I found Stratford came out top of the list by a fair mile, with many 'foreign' visitors to the DRS.

 

[Magdalia]

The discussion so far has said quite a bit about locomotives and EMUs, but not much about loco hauled coaching stock (LHCS) or DMUs.

There was enough LHCS for there to be timetabled trains for LHCS going to and from Works. Two I can think of are Ferme Park-York and Old Oak Common-Wolverton. Were there others?

The Old Oak Common-Wolverton ran through much of the 1970s and 1980s, routed via Oxford and Bletchley Flyover. But I'm guessing that the GWR maintained its own LHCS, so when did the Old Oak Common-Wolverton start?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

On the SR (SWD) Clapham Yard had it's own light maintenance facility, a three road brick built shed, demolished I believe around the same time the (SR based) LH trains finished, so about 1980 ish, when the paper trains ceased to run. Clapham was an ideal location as virtually all SR(SW) based LH stock rotated through there. Not sure how much work was carried out there in later years, probably brake blocks/gear, any other minor defects that didn't effect the actual running of a vehicle. Can't find any evidence in the limited number of CWN's I have of any booked works trips, many vehicles for Eastleigh works I suggest were likely tripped via other services, in an age when there was ample scope to move vehicles via service trains. If anything (EMU) needed 'skating' it would have been arranged by Control on a one off basis as well I would have thought?
The WR 9 Sets (LA based) still visited Clapham after that of course, but only for stabling. At least one of the diagrams rotated through Eastleigh every night, possibly two(?), so anything that became red carded could be detached there, otherwise left to run until back at Laira.

 

[Strathclyder]

As suggested above, I doubt the old steam shed at Kingmoor had a suitable lathe that early on (in diesel terms) whereas Reddish with it's history of EM1 electrics will have had all the necessary set up (I would guess).

Yeah, that does make sense. I did think about the EM1/EM2 connection too, but (rather stupidly) dismissed it as irrelevent.

 

[70014IronDuke]

GE EMUs used to be overhauled at Wolverton during the mid-60s. Not sure when exactly that started or finished - or why Wolverton got involved.

Dunno where else they got heavy work done, Ilford, perhaps?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Yes, Ilford. Ex colleague use to work there.

 

[Magdalia]

GE EMUs used to be overhauled at Wolverton during the mid-60s. Not sure when exactly that started or finished - or why Wolverton got involved.

Dunno where else they got heavy work done, Ilford, perhaps?

I am not clear what happened in the early dc days of Eastern Region EMUs. Possibly everything was done at Ilford?

The ER then rapidly expanded its EMU fleet with various ac electrifications in the late 1950s/early 1960s. I think it is when these EMUs start to go to Works that Wolverton gets involved. At first this involved EMUs being dragged to/from Wolverton via Cambridge. By the 1970s the Ilford-Wolverton Works move via North London was in the Working Timetable.

But I think Eastleigh was involved too, and possibly before Wolverton?

Wolverton's involvement with Eastern Region EMUs lasted a long time, right up to the early days of the class 317s. I have seen pictures of the GN second build class 317s on overhaul at Wolverton.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I am not clear what happened in the early dc days of Eastern Region EMUs. Possibly everything was done at Ilford?

The ER then rapidly expanded its EMU fleet with various ac electrifications in the late 1950s/early 1960s. I think it is when these EMUs start to go to Works that Wolverton gets involved. At first this involved EMUs being dragged to/from Wolverton via Cambridge. By the 1970s the Ilford-Wolverton Works move via North London was in the Working Timetable.

But I think Eastleigh was involved too, and possibly before Wolverton?

Wolverton's involvement with Eastern Region EMUs lasted a long time, right up to the early days of the class 317s. I have seen pictures of the GN second build class 317s on overhaul at Wolverton.

I had no idea it went on for so long. My guess would be that ilford, deep in Ford-influenced worker land, found labour hard to come by, hence the need to 'off-shore'.

Yeah, the drags as I remember sometimes produced the first batch of Brush 2s at the head - the so-called Toffee Apples. (Not that we really knew the difference as kids).

 

[Magdalia]

My guess would be that ilford, deep in Ford-influenced worker land, found labour hard to come by, hence the need to 'off-shore'.

The increase in the size of the fleet was probably the biggest factor, but you are right that the labour market was a driver for moving work out of London.

Yeah, the drags as I remember sometimes produced the first batch of Brush 2s at the head - the so-called Toffee Apples. (Not that we really knew the difference as kids).

I'd very much like to find a photo of a Toffee Apple dragging EMUs on the Cambridge-Bletchley line!