Fuel and Materials Train

[HST43108]

You will be sorry you all heard from me soon.
I often wondered over the years about the internal delivery of BR consumables
such as fuel and parts around BR depots.
I have never seen much specifically written in magazines or forums.
The little bits I gleaned over the years have just mentioned them as working and never delved much in to the topic. Magazines sometimes just tease the mind by giving you little tidbit of info that then raises more questions than answers.
Have you found yourselves in this position?

It raises the question with me as follows,
(A). I would assume BR had a department that manage the delivery of parts and fuel on a regular or cyclical basis and if so where these consumables just attached on to already established freight working or did they indeed require diagrams of their own.

(B). Where was the central stores that all parts were launched from, I assume Crewe or Derby Works would be the most logical locations.
Fuel may have been part of the many oil trains that transversed the network but I would think it would be launched from an number of central locations first.
Truly I don't know what the answer to this is.

It would be great if we could build a comprehensive overview of the logistics of these questions as I said above I have only every found tidbits over the years.

Look forward to where this goes, every little bit of information will help build this picture..........

 

[RichmondCommu]

Off the top of my head.....

There was a department located in Derwent House in the RTC in Derby which coordinated the movement of parts that were sent away for maintenance. These included wheel sets, power units, gear boxes, final drives etc and the department was staffed by both engineers and clerical staff. Ultimately you would have people chasing the delivery of refurbished power units back from Derby Loco Works to various depots around the country such as Laira.

There was (I think) a very large warehouse in Doncaster that contained various spare parts but I couldn't tell you what they were. I think that might have later been known as Railpart.

BR had a large procurement department which was also located in Derwent House in Derby.

 

[unclefreddy]

Not particularly helpful, but I did see a class 08 deliver fuel from Bristol Barton Hill to St Phillips Marsh HST depot, the fuel was in 5 or 6 TTA tanks. The tanks were exchanged for empty ones but I don't recall the frequency of this movement. I should add that the TTAs were connected to the fuel pumps directly as there was not a fuel bunker or store as such. Parts for the depot were delivered by road, the majority from Railpart although other hauliers frequently visited the depot too, presumably with other consumables and parts. This would be around 2003/4 when there was work at the depot to accommodate the then yet to be delivered class 180 "Adelante" units.

 

[HST43108]

Hi RichmondCommu, we are on the scent now, hopefully someone familiar with Derwent House operations will pick it up from there. Thanks, Derby makes perfect sense for a central stores/ procurement dept. Someone will know more and tell us how it came together.
It is BR days I am mainly after as the private sector, we'll need I say anymore.

Unclefreddy, this is the info I am after ok, Fuel most likely came in by similar arrangement as BR days so it should lead to some memories being jogged. I remember now red and gray wagons transporting BR parts as I was told at the time, long time ago so can't remember wagon types. Seemed to be wooden ribbed type, sliding doors perhaps. Memory off them too vague, perhaps someone know the wagons I am talking about.

 

[coppercapped]

On the Western in steam days mechanical parts were dispatched from Swindon to the running sheds in long wheel base 4-wheel vans labelled ENPARTS. When the diesels first arrived the same process was used but the specialised vans were labelled DENPARTS.

In 1963 the new BRB centralised the control of spare parts in Derby with the aim of controlling costs more effectively. Stocks of spares were reduced and the availability of locomotives dropped - there were frequent reports of locomotives waiting weeks for the want of some simple low-cost part.

 

[AndrewE]

Crewe works used to send out (and receive?) parts in distinctive 3-axle vans trip-worked from Basford Hall. Diesel fuel (gas oil) was recieved at depots in 2-axle tank wagons tripped from a nearby yard.

 

[eastwestdivide]

The Southern Region had some converted EMUs for delivering stores around the 3rd-rail network.
See:
http://www.bloodandcustard.com/HAL001.html#Stores
http://www.departmentals.com/departmental/975251
http://www.departmentals.com/photo/977068977069
and my own photos here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/544-southern-region-photos-1980s/?p=1986754

 

[HST43108]

The Southern Region had some converted EMUs for delivering stores around the 3rd-rail network.
See:
http://www.bloodandcustard.com/HAL001.html#Stores
http://www.departmentals.com/departmental/975251
http://www.departmentals.com/photo/977068977069
and my own photos here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/544-southern-region-photos-1980s/?p=1986754

This is exactly the sort of thing I am after. I would say it was a very big operation stocking depots and stations from Central locations.
Perhaps someone will be able to let us know about other parts of the country.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Crewe works used to send out (and receive?) parts in distinctive 3-axle vans trip-worked from Basford Hall. Diesel fuel (gas oil) was recieved at depots in 2-axle tank wagons tripped from a nearby yard.

Hi Andrew, many thanks - would they have been dedicated trains solely used for BR internal use so to speak or where the attached to already established freight flows.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On the Western in steam days mechanical parts were dispatched from Swindon to the running sheds in long wheel base 4-wheel vans labelled ENPARTS. When the diesels first arrived the same process was used but the specialised vans were labelled DENPARTS.

In 1963 the new BRB centralised the control of spare parts in Derby with the aim of controlling costs more effectively. Stocks of spares were reduced and the availability of locomotives dropped - there were frequent reports of locomotives waiting weeks for the want of some simple low-cost part.

Yes the dreaded word "Centralised" it wasn't always the cheapest in the end as the amount out downtime locos had across the network would be colossal for small things as you say.
One plus thing about privatisation is that it wouldn't be tolerated.
But the down side of privatisation is BR could react much quicker and integrate stock from other regions etc. Provide relief trains etc etc. They wouldn't understand that now. "The Computer says No".
Too many obstacles today.

 

[coppercapped]

This is exactly the sort of thing I am after. I would say it was a very big operation stocking depots and stations from Central locations.
Perhaps someone will be able to let us know about other parts of the country.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Hi Andrew, many thanks - would they have been dedicated trains solely used for BR internal use so to speak or where the attached to already established freight flows.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yes the dreaded word "Centralised" it wasn't always the cheapest in the end as the amount out downtime locos had across the network would be colossal for small things as you say.
One plus thing about privatisation is that it wouldn't be tolerated.
But the down side of privatisation is BR could react much quicker and integrate stock from other regions etc. Provide relief trains etc etc. They wouldn't understand that now. "The Computer says No".
Too many obstacles today.

But, at least on the Western and Southern (which I know best) there were very few relief trains after the mid-60s. The summer Saturday holiday trains were by then a thing of the past - there were some 'reservation only' trains in this period but in penny numbers - and after the HSTs were introduced in 1976 - 40 years ago - relief trains were essentially no more. What did happen was that the locomotive hauled peak trains (from memory, at the outside there were about 3 rakes) out of Paddington to places like Westbury were occasionally used at the weekends and even that stopped by the early 1990s as the rakes were replaced by the Class 165s and 166s.

The Southern was even more rigorous, after the Salisbury - Exeter line was singled in the 1960s there weren't any reliefs and they were as good as unknown on the electric network.

It's not that "The Computer says 'No'" to relief trains - there just isn't any spare stock that could be used. And at around £15 million capital cost for a 10 coach emu who will keep that in reserve to use it once a week on Friday evenings?

 

[pdeaves]

There was (I think) a very large warehouse in Doncaster that contained various spare parts but I couldn't tell you what they were. I think that might have later been known as Railpart.

Correct. The store had just about everything you care to name, and anything too big to store or too valuable to have sat around 'in case' had a catalogue number to order against. They claimed to be able to get anything, even theoretical products like complete vehicles!

When I was a BR trainee I spent a couple of days there and had an HGV trip (as a passenger, of course) to Newton Heath and back, delivering 'stuff'. The HGV contractor was 'Swift Services'; they had red lorries. They don't seem to be around any more, no doubt taken over by another haulier.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Before the advent of the National Supplies Centre at Doncaster (in the old DMU shop), the parts would generally come from individual main works. For us in the KX area, they would arrive on the local trip working in either Vanfits or open high goods. Back in the sixties you might even get them in a bd type container. Sometimes an LMS six wheeled van used to appear from LMR works, usually containing coach batteries for Bounds Green.

Fuel came to us from Purfleet in 45t tanks, again via the local trip. It was all on a call off contract organised by the director of supply (later procurement) at Derby and occasionally the contract would change from Shell to Esso or vice versa. Same with lub oils which also used to appear in tankers.

Ordering of all components and supplies would be done by a depot through their regional supplies organisation on contracts let by Derby. Urgent items would be dealt with by the Urgent Vehicle Standing (UVS) system and defective material would go back under the red label (for inspection) system. Monitoring of UVS and fuel tanks on hand and en route was done by the local divisional office who were expert at sorting out delays or blockages in delivery. Woe betide you if you had something stopped waiting material and you hadn't shoved in a UVS for it.

When the NSC stated up, ordinary trunk as well as trip rail freight services were in such decline that is was easier and cheaper to put most of it on a lorry and Swifts, with their red vehicles, got the first contract. Eventually the lack of freight workings meant that by the early 1990s most fuel went by road too. In the KX area the closure of KX pass loco, then Finsbury Park and finally the cutover from HST to 91 had reduced the usage way before then so there was only the odd requirement for a tankers worth.

Unipart now run the NSC but with several other suppliers in the spares game, you now get road vehicles turning up from everywhere, even from abroad.

 

[AndrewE]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Hi Andrew, many thanks - would they have been dedicated trains solely used for BR internal use so to speak or where the attached to already established freight flows.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

These are what I remember seeing (but I don't remember the "Stores" lettering.)
http://www.departmentals.com/photo/40200-1
http://www.departmentals.com/photo/40289
I think the standard vacuum-braked freight sevices would have been used between yards - not block trains but made up of whatever wagons needed to go on that next stage of their journey - then probably a dedicated trip working in or out of the works at Crewe. Can't comment on trip working between yards and loco depots, but I would guess that it would have depended on whether there were any other private sidings or small freight terminals in the area.

 

[Taunton]

For coal on the Western there was a special "loco coal" service from South Wales every week or 10 days for the "83" division, ie Taunton and west. I presume other WR loco divisions organised things the same way. This started at Severn Tunnel Junction, where the wagons had been assembled from various Welsh collieries. Because Taunton was nearest, and had a handful of 28xx, it would be arranged that they took a turn to STJ (generally coal empties) and picked up the return working, which ran nonstop via the Bristol avoiding line to Taunton, where it was remanned, and on as far as Laira (beyond where the remainder was transferred to a local freight). At each depot along the way the required number of wagons were shunted off. There were occasions when somewhere like Newton Abbot had run out, and progress of the train was followed more closely by Control than the Cornish Riviera.

If there was a Royal Train or similar coming down, a special wagonload of coal came from a key colliery (Ogilvie seems to ring a bell) that had been hand-picked and was apparently almost free of ash, and burned tremendously. Once the Royal loco had been coaled and gone, everyone else tried for a tenderful.

 

[HST43108]

For coal on the Western there was

If there was a Royal Train or similar coming down, a special wagonload of coal came from a key colliery (Ogilvie seems to ring a bell) that had been hand-picked and was apparently almost free of ash, and burned tremendously. Once the Royal loco had been coaled and gone, everyone else tried for a tenderful.

Interesting , I did not know that. Many thanks
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Hi Andrew, interesting links you sent.
You make an excellent point regarding private sidings,it would make sense to combine with a trip working diagram. The integration in those days across so many sectors was fascinating.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ordering of all components and supplies would be done by a depot through their regional supplies organisation on contracts let by Derby. Urgent items would be dealt with by the Urgent Vehicle Standing (UVS) system and defective material would go back under the red label (for inspection) system. Monitoring of UVS and fuel tanks on hand and en route was done by the local divisional office who were expert at sorting out delays or blockages in delivery. Woe betide you if you had something stopped waiting material and you hadn't shoved in a UVS for it.

When you talk about "regional supply organisations on contracts let by Derby"
Does this mean by extension that these were private firms they were contracting in to management of supplies, or do you mean contracted to another department of BR

So interesting this. Thanks for sharing with us.

 

[Ploughman]

Mention of UVS reminds me that whenI worked at BREL in York I was the UVS man.
As stated UVS = Urgent Vehicle Standing. In our case it either meant that I had to take a part to a depot or go to another depot or Manufacturer and collect a part needed.
If the part was fairly small No Car, van or lorry. I was given an "All Stations / All Regions" Pass and away I went.
The biggest Item I brought back on foot was a pair of Gangway Rubbers for a 156 from Telford.
Regular destinations were Crewe, Derby, Westinghouse at Chippenham, Selhurst, Preston, Edinburgh and Liverpool.

if it was a big item then one of the Lorry drivers was sent. I did holiday / Sick relief on that as well.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Region in this context means BR region - ER, ScR, WR, LMR and SR.

BR in those days (1970s) was mainly organised HQ - Region - Division - Area/Depot.

The individual "Main Works" Workshops were centrally controlled through BREL.

 

[Taunton]

If there was a Royal Train or similar coming down, a special wagonload of coal came from a key colliery (Ogilvie seems to ring a bell) that had been hand-picked and was apparently almost free of ash, and burned tremendously. Once the Royal loco had been coaled and gone, everyone else tried for a tenderful.

Interesting , I did not know that. Many thanks

I understand that the prominent loco failure that happened to the commemorative train in 1964, celebrating 60 years since City of Truro's 100mph down Wellington Bank, where 4079 Pendennis Castle had the firebars fall out at Westbury on the down run, was attributed to a tender of wonderful hand-picked coal specially selected for the day. Combined with an all-out speed effort, an hour after leaving Paddington the fire was just too hot and the firebars were burned through.

Rescued (of course) by 7025 Sudeley Castle which was specially polished up at Taunton as the standby loco - for which just such a special wagonload of coal had been sent down.

http://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/60s/640509ia.html