Future Of The Celanese Sidings At Spondon

[RichmondCommu]

G'day everyone,

With the Celanese plant at Spondon due to be demolished this summer I wonder what the future holds for the sidings that once served the plant. One would hope that they are at least retained until Derby station is resignalled later this decade. By retaining the sidings there is a chance that Toyota might be persuaded to start exporting their cars by rail given how useful their location is.

Your thoughts on this and any news on their future would be very welcome!

Kind regards,

Richmond Commuter!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Interesting thought - when Toyota first came to the UK - there were long discussions about rail connection which came to nought ......no doubt they are happy with the status quo.....

 

[CockneySparrow]

If they are going to be out of use until the resignalling later in the decade I ask the question what state the rails will be, no doubt covered in vegetation

Problem is how much would it cost to maintain them on a maybe

 

[RichmondCommu]

Interesting thought - when Toyota first came to the UK - there were long discussions about rail connection which came to nought ......no doubt they are happy with the status quo.....

In all fairness to Toyota there hasn't been a suitable location for loading cars but the demolition of the Celanese plant would change this. The plant is dual carriage way all the way from the Toyota plant so its location is excellent.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If they are going to be out of use until the resignalling later in the decade I ask the question what state the rails will be, no doubt covered in vegetation

Problem is how much would it cost to maintain them on a maybe

They haven't been used for at least five years but the sidings look to be in very good repair. It's also worth mentioning that the sidings are completely free from vegetation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If they are going to be out of use until the resignalling later in the decade I ask the question what state the rails will be, no doubt covered in vegetation

Problem is how much would it cost to maintain them on a maybe

There is of course no reason why they can't be used before the resignalling takes place!

 

[The Planner]

If they end the connection agreement then the likelihood is that they may linger on until the resignalling then get ripped out.

 

[RichmondCommu]

If they end the connection agreement then the likelihood is that they may linger on until the resignalling then get ripped out.

Thanks for your post. What is a connection agreement?

 

[The Planner]

A private siding which is off the network (i.e. behind gates normally) has a contractual agreement to connect to the mainline which the owner pays for. If they don't need it then they end it, unless someone else takes it on via a new owner or new traffic then the S&C becomes a maintenance liability.

 

[RichmondCommu]

A private siding which is off the network (i.e. behind gates normally) has a contractual agreement to connect to the mainline which the owner pays for. If they don't need it then they end it, unless someone else takes it on via a new owner or new traffic then the S&C becomes a maintenance liability.

Many thanks for this. I would be interested to know whether the contractual agreement is still in place given that the plant has been closed for at least the last 12 months.

 

[Kneedown]

If Toyota were interested in moving their products by rail, wouldn't it make more sense to use the former MoD sidings at Eggington (Admittedly now very overgrown!) which are right next door to the Burnaston Factory, rather than transport them to the other side of the City?

 

[gordonthemoron]

it may be a dual carriageway from Burnaston to Spondon but there are a few roundabouts

 

[MarkyT]

it may be a dual carriageway from Burnaston to Spondon but there are a few roundabouts

I suspect if Toyota Derby ever starts rail dispatch of any of its production, for export most likely in trainloads, either to Europe via tunnel or to ports for maritime forwarding, then a dedicated siding complex diverging from the Uttoxeter line would be much more convenient. A site next to the plant, alongside the A38 could be a good general purpose rail distribution site for other businesses too and could encourage the car plant to also bring in some supplies by rail.

 

[RichmondCommu]

it may be a dual carriageway from Burnaston to Spondon but there are a few roundabouts

I don't see what the issue is here given that where you have dual carriageways you have roundabouts!

 

[gordonthemoron]

I don't see what the issue is here given that where you have dual carriageways you have roundabouts!

what I was getting at is it is a congested inner city/town ring road with a low speed limit, not like the A50 with a 70mph speed limit

 

[RichmondCommu]

I suspect if Toyota Derby ever starts rail dispatch of any of its production, for export most likely in trainloads, either to Europe via tunnel or to ports for maritime forwarding, then a dedicated siding complex diverging from the Uttoxeter line would be much more convenient. A site next to the plant, alongside the A38 could be a good general purpose rail distribution site for other businesses too and could encourage the car plant to also bring in some supplies by rail.

The problem is whilst I concur that this would be much more convenient it would also be much more expensive! There is a rail served distrubtion park at Castle Donnington but the sidings have remained unused since it opened.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

what I was getting at is it is a congested inner city/town ring road with a low speed limit, not like the A50 with a 70mph speed limit

However the Spondon site is right on the edge of the city and lorries would completely avoid the inner ring road and city centre. The A50 turn off to Derby ends very close to Spondon and then it’s a 50 mph dual carriage practically all way to the sidings.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If Toyota were interested in moving their products by rail, wouldn't it make more sense to use the former MoD sidings at Eggington (Admittedly now very overgrown!) which are right next door to the Burnaston Factory, rather than transport them to the other side of the City?

To be honest I didn't realise that the sidings were still there as its many years since I travelled along the line. The only problem is the local roads are not very good and are certainly not suitable for HGV's.

 

[Kneedown]

I can't see any issues with the route to Spondon really. Out the factory onto the Eastbound A50, take the Alvaston exit and straight onto the "Alvaston By pass", onto Raynesway and your there. 3 slip roads and 3 roundabouts IIRR.
I just thought Eggington would be more convenient, as long as the MoD no longer have a hold on the land, and the connection was re-instated at Eggington Junction.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I just thought Eggington would be more convenient, as long as the MoD no longer have a hold on the land, and the connection was re-instated at Eggington Junction.

Even if the MoD still owned the land this shouldn't be too much of a barrier to reinstating the sidings. Unless I'm missing something here! Which direction did the connection to the sidings face?

 

[MarkyT]

Ideally you'd want to drive the cars directly from the stockholding area straight onto the trains, not involving a time consuming double transfer via HGV, in which case they might as well stay on the lorry to the port and on to Europe. An intermodal solution with prepacked car 'container' would be good, and that might make part loads to various domestic distribution terminal around the UK viable, like the developing supermarket model, but I'm not sure if a viable size could fit within UK loading gauge and still you'd want to avoid transhipment. A factory of that importance should be able to afford a siding if it was serious about rail haulage.

Eggington Junction: Google Earth 2013 imagery shows only the trailling crossover remaining on the main line, and although there appears to be some overgrown track in the old yard, it is not connected to the running lines in any way. The old branch trackbed from the junction could be used to access the car stockhoding area, passing under the the A50, then reversing back from a spur roughly on the old Etwall station site and into sidings near the factory test circuit and stockholding alongside the A50

 

[Mugby]

The connection faced towards Derby. There was a farcical incident whereby some withdrawn Class 45 locos were stored in the sidings and some pre-planned engineering work removed the connection and replaced it with plain line, it was realised soon after that the locos were trapped inside and the connection had to be reinstated to get them out, then it was removed again!

With regard to the A50 road, I seem to remember that when all the interested parties were attempting to woo Toyota to the Burnaston site, one of the main conditions insisted on by Toyota was the building of the road in order to provide a fast route for their export production to Liverpool docks.

 

[edwin_m]

The idea of a terminal for Toyota has been kicking around for some years, generally falling for the usual reasons of how much it would cost and who would pay for it.

A potential user of rail freight there is an advantage to having access to a terminal without going over public roads, because then internal site vehicles can be used that don't require licensing and (I think) can be run on red diesel. As soon as you have to go out on the highway, whether to Egginton, Spondon or somewhere else, the costs go right up and in a lot of cases you might as well just carry on driving the stuff to its destination.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The idea of a terminal for Toyota has been kicking around for some years, generally falling for the usual reasons of how much it would cost and who would pay for it.

A potential user of rail freight there is an advantage to having access to a terminal without going over public roads, because then internal site vehicles can be used that don't require licensing and (I think) can be run on red diesel. As soon as you have to go out on the highway, whether to Egginton, Spondon or somewhere else, the costs go right up and in a lot of cases you might as well just carry on driving the stuff to its destination.

Assuming that Toyota starting using the railways to transport its cars for European export markets why would the trains need to run to a port? Why not send the trains under the Channel in which case a short run to either Egginton or even Spondon would be almost immaterial.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ideally you'd want to drive the cars directly from the stockholding area straight onto the trains, not involving a time consuming double transfer via HGV, in which case they might as well stay on the lorry to the port and on to Europe. An intermodal solution with prepacked car 'container' would be good, and that might make part loads to various domestic distribution terminal around the UK viable, like the developing supermarket model, but I'm not sure if a viable size could fit within UK loading gauge and still you'd want to avoid transhipment. A factory of that importance should be able to afford a siding if it was serious about rail haulage.

If Toyota is using one of the FOC's to transport its cars for European export markets why not run them under the Channel. I agree that car containers would not fit our loading gauge. In terms of Toyota funding a rail served terminal I think they would look for substantial investment from the Government. After all that’s what got them to this country in the first place!

Eggington Junction: Google Earth 2013 imagery shows only the trailling crossover remaining on the main line, and although there appears to be some overgrown track in the old yard, it is not connected to the running lines in any way. The old branch trackbed from the junction could be used to access the car stockhoding area, passing under the the A50, then reversing back from a spur roughly on the old Etwall station site and into sidings near the factory test circuit and stockholding alongside the A50

In the event that the land at Egginton Junction was used the chances are that the connection to the sidings would have to be renewed anyway due to its inevitable poor condition. At least part of the old track bed is now used as a cycle track although I'm not sure how far that extends to Egginton Junction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The connection faced towards Derby. There was a farcical incident whereby some withdrawn Class 45 locos were stored in the sidings and some pre-planned engineering work removed the connection and replaced it with plain line, it was realised soon after that the locos were trapped inside and the connection had to be reinstated to get them out, then it was removed again!

Were the class 45's reinstated after their removal? If not I'm curious to know why they were not cut up on site? Surely that would have made more sense. Thanks for the information by the way

 

[edwin_m]

Eggington Junction: Google Earth 2013 imagery shows only the trailling crossover remaining on the main line, and although there appears to be some overgrown track in the old yard, it is not connected to the running lines in any way. The old branch trackbed from the junction could be used to access the car stockhoding area, passing under the the A50, then reversing back from a spur roughly on the old Etwall station site and into sidings near the factory test circuit and stockholding alongside the A50

It's not very clear on the imagery but the bridge where the A50 goes over the old line was built to dimensions suitable for a cycleway but is much too small for railway use. I seem to recall that the reason for closure of the Mickleover test track was to avoid building a full-spec road-over-rail bridge here.

A terminal south of the A50 and west of the A38 could have a road bridge over the A50 for Toyota's private use so they could drive the cars straight onto a train, or even a rail spur over the A50 and into the site.

One of the problems it that much of the traffic is to/from the Toyota engine plant at Dee Marsh, and by rail this is a very indirect journey via Wrexham with loading gauge restrictions, whereas the road journey is much more straightforward and a road driver can easily do out and back in a single shift.

The MoD sidings at Egginton would only accommodate a train of 300m or so. Cars are high-volume but not very dense so economies of scale probably don't exist unless the train is quite a bit longer.

 

[MarkyT]

It's not very clear on the imagery but the bridge where the A50 goes over the old line was built to dimensions suitable for a cycleway but is much too small for railway use. I seem to recall that the reason for closure of the Mickleover test track was to avoid building a full-spec road-over-rail bridge here.

Hadn't realised that. Found this cycling blog that illustrates the route including the bridge, just possibly wide enough for a limited clearance single track if vertical clearance could be improved without complete reconstruction, but then where would the path go? I agree that's a non-starter.

http://simssycling.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/mickleover-to-hilton.html

A terminal south of the A50 and west of the A38 could have a road bridge over the A50 for Toyota's private use so they could drive the cars straight onto a train, or even a rail spur over the A50 and into the site.

I like that - An internal access road to an extended stockholding area and sidings south of the A50. That could also be used by internal drays moving supply loads around the plant.

One of the problems it that much of the traffic is to/from the Toyota engine plant at Dee Marsh, and by rail this is a very indirect journey via Wrexham with loading gauge restrictions, whereas the road journey is much more straightforward and a road driver can easily do out and back in a single shift.

Take the point about the roundabout route from the engine plant. An east to north chord at Shotton would be useful, especially if it could also benefit other freight flows. Loading gauge shouldn't be a particular problem for the engine traffic, which being dense should be possible to accommodate in the smallest containers or wagons.