Future uses for Renatus class 321s?

[Bob Price]

mods note - split from here

The likelihood of any more 230's being sold are small. The 321 project is much more feasible and there is a potentially bigger market for those.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The likelihood of any more 230's being sold are small. The 321 project is much more feasible and there is a potentially bigger market for those.

I’d say there’s no market at all for converted 321s. For not much more you’re better off just getting new trains. The same for the 230s, unless GWR’s trial is successful and they order a pair for the Greenford branch.

 

[Bob Price]

The use of newly refurbished 321 trains would fit Paddington to Oxford, and Bedwyn services well. Vivarail have said they have been in discussions with TOCs so they must believe there is a market for them somewhere.

 

[D365]

I’d say there’s no market at all for converted 321s. For not much more you’re better off just getting new trains. The same for the 230s, unless GWR’s trial is successful and they order a pair for the Greenford branch.

I’d say there is a much better market for ’straight’ battery conversions, as opposed to hybrids like the 230s.

Eversholt will be keen to rent out their Renatus units for another 10 years for routes that need a stop-gap between diesel and full electrification.

 

[JonathanH]

The use of newly refurbished 321 trains would fit Paddington to Oxford, and Bedwyn services well. Vivarail have said they have been in discussions with TOCs so they must believe there is a market for them somewhere.

They aren't going to fit well on the main line with a maximum speed of 100mph. GWR will have very limited desire to lease 321s rather than 387s. Is anyone at GWR / DfT actually that bothered about through stoppers to Oxford or Bedwyn being restored?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The use of newly refurbished 321 trains would fit Paddington to Oxford, and Bedwyn services well. Vivarail have said they have been in discussions with TOCs so they must believe there is a market for them somewhere.

I'm sorry, what? You want to take the perfectly suitable Azumas IETs off of Paddington Oxford and replace them with 321s? Why on earth would they do that?

 

[JonathanH]

I'm sorry, what? You want to take the perfectly suitable Azumas off of Paddington Oxford and replace them with 321s? Why on earth would they do that?

I think the OP was talking about extending the Didcot stoppers to Oxford, rather than putting 321s on the fasts (but of course there is a plan for the Didcot trains to run fast line to Dolphin Junction from May 2023).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think the OP was talking about extending the Didcot stoppers to Oxford, rather than putting 321s on the fasts (but of course there is a plan for the Didcot trains to run fast line to Dolphin Junction from May 2023).

In which case I agree with you unconditionally that replacing 387s with 321s for the sake of removing the same platform change at Didcot Parkway is absolutely preposterous and a very backwards step indeed - with all respect to the OP and no offence intended, I might add.

I’d say there is a much better market for ’straight’ battery conversions, as opposed to hybrids like the 230s.

Eversholt will be keen to rent out their Renatus units for another 10 years for routes that need a stop-gap between diesel and full electrification.

But, realistically, which TOC (and for which routes?) can you picture wanting to take out a major investment and risk on 35 year old (from next year) units, when they can order in new?
By the time they were in service, they'd be forty, by which time how long would you want to keep them in use anyway?

 

[cactustwirly]

I'm sorry, what? You want to take the perfectly suitable Azumas off of Paddington Oxford and replace them with 321s? Why on earth would they do that?

They're not completely suitable, the 5s are a poor match of capacity.
Ideally you would split and join the Cotswolds 800s at Oxford and run 9 or 10 cars in the Oxford only services

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They're not completely suitable, the 5s are a poor match of capacity.
Ideally you would split and join the Cotswolds 800s at Oxford and run 9 or 10 cars in the Oxford only services

Yes, but that's still utilising IETs. I'm not saying the current way the IETs are used is suitable, but that the trains themselves are - or at least would be if they were utilised in the way you've suggested.

 

[D365]

But, realistically, which TOC (and for which routes?) can you picture wanting to take out a major investment and risk on 35 year old (from next year) units, when they can order in new?
By the time they were in service, they'd be forty, by which time how long would you want to keep them in use anyway?

It’s Eversholt making the investment, not the TOC.

And I highly doubt it would be a five year job to convert the 321s, given that Viva has already developed several battery prototypes.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It’s Eversholt making the investment, not the TOC.

And I highly doubt it would be a five year job to convert the 321s, given that Viva has already developed several battery prototypes.

Yes, but what I mean is, which TOC will actually take them on?

 

[D365]

Yes, but what I mean is, which TOC will actually take them on?

Well, that’s the reason for being of this thread.

Myself, I’m indifferent - it’s up to Eversholt to ’sell’ the units.

 

[Trainbike46]

How hard would it be to make them third rail capable as well as install batteries? if that works you could potentially use them on the southern diesel routes - and remove diesel operation (and maintenance) from southern entirely

 

[JonathanH]

How hard would it be to make them third rail capable as well as install batteries? if that works you could potentially use them on the southern diesel routes - and remove diesel operation (and maintenance) from southern entirely

Not as easy as starting with a 319?

 

[Trainbike46]

Not as easy as starting with a 319?

I don't wee why it would matter whether you started with a 319 or a 321 tbh?

 

[CBlue]

I don't wee why it would matter whether you started with a 319 or a 321 tbh?

319s can already run on 3rd rail, 321s are AC only. In terms of conversion it matters quite a bit, no?

 

[Trainbike46]

good point

maybe it's time for a battery 319 for southern then

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Best use is to knock out a coach and Scotrail taken them in lieu of 318/320's so they get the benefit of reduced energy and regen capability.

 

[JonathanH]

Best use is to knock out a coach and Scotrail taken them in lieu of 318/320's so they get the benefit of reduced energy and regen capability.

Too short term with the 318/320s already planned for replacement.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Too short term with the 318/320s already planned for replacement.

Minimum five years away so given Scotrail is leading the way with decarbonisation reducing current energy usage should be high on their agenda.

 

[skyhigh]

Best use is to knock out a coach and Scotrail taken them in lieu of 318/320's so they get the benefit of reduced energy and regen capability.

Minimum five years away so given Scotrail is leading the way with decarbonisation reducing current energy usage should be high on their agenda.

Given the Renatus units have air con, I would be surprised if the total energy usage was that much lower, even with regen braking. Compare that to the costs of modifying the units to remove a coach, train fitters and crew on the differences for relatively short term use when there's already a suitable fleet in place.

Eversholt may also be hoping for a longer-term future for the Renatus units under alternative power schemes. In which case, why would they want to give the units a relatively short lease which involves storing/scrapping refurbished vehicles and will mean by the time it's expired any hope for longer term use has passed by?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Given the Renatus units have air con, I would be surprised if the total energy usage was that much lower, even with regen braking. Compare that to the costs of modifying the units to remove a coach, train fitters and crew on the differences for relatively short term use when there's already a suitable fleet in place.

Doesn't get too hot in Scotland to need it much across the year!! but regen would deliver far more power back than the air con would use although it does need other trains to be on the same feeder section which may limit its benefits out to Ayr etc.

Eversholt may also be hoping for a longer-term future for the Renatus units under alternative power schemes. In which case, why would they want to give the units a relatively short lease which involves storing/scrapping refurbished vehicles and will mean by the time it's expired any hope for longer term use has passed by?

They could still double down in Scotland if they convert some to BEMU operation they could be used on Levenmouth/Borders line where electrification is planned for completion well ahead of Scotrails new fleet procurement plans.

 

[RobShipway]

The use of newly refurbished 321 trains would fit Paddington to Oxford, and Bedwyn services well. Vivarail have said they have been in discussions with TOCs so they must believe there is a market for them somewhere.

You would be better off using class 379 with those being converted to BEMU, as I believe they can have their top speed converted to 110mph from their current 100mph. The problem is the charging of the battery which ever train that you use as it can take up to 2 hours possibly as found when tests where done back in 2015.

 

[jackot]

You would be better off using class 379 with those being converted to BEMU, as I believe they can have their top speed converted to 110mph from their current 100mph. The problem is the charging of the battery which ever train that you use as it can take up to 2 hours possibly as found when tests where done back in 2015.

I would think the same. Compared to current demand there seems to be quite a big surplus of used EMUs at the moment, and I struggle to see why someone would choose the older 321s for a conversion project instead of the newer 379s or even the 350/2s which look to be available soon, both being much newer and capable of higher top speeds (the latter already running at 110mph)

I know they have been refurbished not long ago, but they seem to be a problem looking for a solution in my view, especially with the way the industry is going. You only have to look at the 769s to see that fitting a train of that age with new engines/batteries is a very complex task and not one that has proven to be a good long-term solution.

 

[D365]

I don't wee why it would matter whether you started with a 319 or a 321 tbh?

321s are not capable of third rail pickup.

You would be better off using class 379 with those being converted to BEMU, as I believe they can have their top speed converted to 110mph from their current 100mph. The problem is the charging of the battery which ever train that you use as it can take up to 2 hours possibly as found when tests where done back in 2015.

The IPEMU was a demonstrator and not representative of what a finished product would look like.