Gaining access to a platform

[Failed Unit]

A question really for RPI's

I want to gain access to a gated station to take some photo's.

Easy methord by a ticket to the next stations to open the gates.

If I buy a child ticket / railcard ticket, is that illegal as I am not actually travelling anywhere? I know it is a bit of a hypethical question as people don't normally question people going through gates unless the ticket is rejected. But do the conditions of carriage cover people just going through the gates?

(I know it is hardly worth it to save 50p but some stations the next station can be a reasonable distance away)

 

[HSTfan!!!]

well technically the RPI shouldn't let you through on a child ticket, if you're not a child. I'm no expert but I've seen barriers with child tickets need some authorisation from the RPI

 

[generalvegitable]

or for (I think) free you could get a platform ticket and have a full hour on the platform!

 

[Failed Unit]

well technically the RPI shouldn't let you through on a child ticket, if you're not a child. I'm no expert but I've seen barriers with child tickets need some authorisation from the RPI

Having a real child myself the RPI need no involvement (nor do they with railcard tickets). On a child ticket the barrier puts up the word child and then opens the gates as normal. A railcard ticket you don't get a message at all.

However the key point is the fact that I am not going anywhere. If I was in a supermarket and put something in my pocket an detective could do nothing about it until I left the shop as I could take it out my pocket and pay. I doubt rail is the same, but again if I buy my ticket am I actaully breaking a bylaw if I don't get on a train?

 

[Helvellyn]

Why not just ask if there are arrangements in place to allow you onto the platform with a platform ticket?

If you bought a child ticket and for some reason it was rejected, and you were then questioned by a RPI/RPA they might refuse you entry unless you went back and bought a full price ticket. If it was rejected coming back out of the station they might then assume you have travelled on said child ticket and not been stood up on the platform for an hour or so. Surely it's simpler to ask about taking photos than creating an appearance of something underhand by purchasing a child ticket?

 

[Lampshade]

Which gated station is it?

 

[ukrob]

A question really for RPI's

I want to gain access to a gated station to take some photo's.

Easy methord by a ticket to the next stations to open the gates.

If I buy a child ticket / railcard ticket, is that illegal as I am not actually travelling anywhere? I know it is a bit of a hypethical question as people don't normally question people going through gates unless the ticket is rejected. But do the conditions of carriage cover people just going through the gates?

(I know it is hardly worth it to save 50p but some stations the next station can be a reasonable distance away)

It does seem like you are trying to make things more difficult for yourself than they actually are?

 

[alexdodds]

At Leeds station i think you can buy a platform ticket for 20p. If you are staying more than an hour then go into the station reception ask for a badge and you will be allowed as long as you like. If you are asked to sign in then do it just to keep things sweet.

At Liverpool Lime Street I am not sure if you can get a platform ticket for the Northern platforms but for that station the end of platform 7 and 8 best for good shots still and video.

 

[Lampshade]

Most Northern stations you can buy a platform ticket, if it's gated they usually just say when buying one to inform the gateline staff where you'll be and let them know when you leave.

 

[moonrakerz]

A But do the conditions of carriage cover people just going through the gates?

The very act of you buying a ticket means that the National Rail Conditions of Carriage apply.

 

[Daniel]

Having a real child myself the RPI need no involvement (nor do they with railcard tickets). On a child ticket the barrier puts up the word child and then opens the gates as normal. A railcard ticket you don't get a message at all.

An RPI can need involvement with railcards - someone could buy a discounted ticket from a passenger operated machine without having a railcard. Whilst railcard discounted tickets don't give an indication to the user, they do give an indication to staff by means of a light on the other side of the gate, showing that the person passing through has a discount entitlement / photocard you need to check.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Platform tickets exist for this very purpose, every manned ticket office can sell them and any ticket office clerk that says otherwise is incorrect.

Very few clerks will sell a platform ticket as they are so rarely issued that most people don't know how to do it, but they are available.

 

[Daniel]

Very few clerks will sell a platform ticket as they are so rarely issued that most people don't know how to do it, but they are available.

Indeed, I had an argument with two clerks and a supervisor at Waterloo Travel Centre before I was sold one - they knew they existed but said that 'you're not allowed them at Waterloo'. After finally getting them to issue one, and paying my 10p, I found that it did not operate the gateline, so had to have another argument with a gateline attendant and eventually convinced him that the platform ticket meant I was allowed on the platform.

 

[Lampshade]

It says this on Wikipedia (:roll:

South West Trains do not issue platform tickets. Entry to parts of South West Trains station concourses beyond the ticket barrier for passengers without valid tickets for travel is not a right, but at the company's discretion.

Hence the problem at Waterloo.

 

[alexdodds]

At Waterloo the only way to access the platforms to get pics and vids is go to station reception again like i have said before ask for a visitors badge signing in may not be required but at least you get access and no problems off staff.

 

[Greeny]

Half the problem for people taking pics/videos these days is that the keystones seem to have adopted the MDP example and spend a lot of their time goose stepping up and down platforms harassing photographers. Driver gets a brick in the face = "oh we'll get there as soon as possible". Loony with a bit of gold braid takes exception to a few spotters on a platform, and the keystones turn out like the opening scene from 'Hill Street Blues'

G

 

[Dolive22]

If MDP means Ministry of Defence Police you can understand their policy. Spies do still exist, and terrorists still try and kill soldiers, even on the mainland.

As to photography at stations, a similar response would be massively over the top as long as you have signed in.

 

[Hampshire Unit]

Having a real child myself the RPI need no involvement (nor do they with railcard tickets). On a child ticket the barrier puts up the word child and then opens the gates as normal. A railcard ticket you don't get a message at all.

The Ticket barriers can be set to what is required. For example on a Friday night lets say at Guildford the Rpi’s might decide to have a purge on Child tickets so they would then set the gates not to allow any child tickets through and raise the alarm when one is being used. The same can go for Railcards or for whatever they chose to be honest.

 

[Lampshade]

What?

How fair is it on a child of 6/7 for their parents to go through the ticket gates and them to be stranded the other side of the gateline in the peak with a huge crowd behind them having just left the train?

Not that I'm saying this is an everyday occurrance, but it's certainly possible nonetheless.

 

[Failed Unit]

Which gated station is it?

It is Lincoln Central I am refering to in this case, but my question was more general. If you ask the gateline some staff have no problem letting you through but you get one or two that have the hardline - no access unless you are travelling!

Looks like in general yes you can get on with a child ticket, but it is the money saving worthwhile if you get a day in court for your trouble. That would certainly be an interesing test of innocent until proven guilty. Can you prove I travelled on a train, could I have a look at your CCTV footage from camera X showing I never left the station Not really worth the hastle, I will just spend my time looking for the cheapest CDR ticket.

 

[Dolive22]

Technically if it is a compulsory ticket area you would be breaking byelaw 17, as you would be in a CTA without a ticket valid for you. Claiming the ticket is for a child (even if you only imply it or only tell a machine) is fraud as you intend cause a gain to you (by not having to pay for an adult ticket) even though you didn't plan to travel.

 

[Failed Unit]

Technically if it is a compulsory ticket area you would be breaking byelaw 17, as you would be in a CTA without a ticket valid for you. Claiming the ticket is for a child (even if you only imply it or only tell a machine) is fraud as you intend cause a gain to you (by not having to pay for an adult ticket) even though you didn't plan to travel.

True, I was going to see I have seen notices to that effect on London underground. However many parts of national rail are not.

Grantham is interesting as it is gated (or soon will be) but you can buy tickets on Hull trains aboard. I wonder how many arguements there will be from people that say "I want to travel HT let me through" I digress.

 

[Dolive22]

A CTA is 'any area designated as such under a Penalty Fares Scheme and identified by a notice to this effect. Persons who enter a compulsory ticket area without being in possession of a valid ticket may be liable to pay a penalty fare;' for the purpose of the railway byelaws.

On of these days I'm going to have to learn to quote properly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've been an idiot. Although byelaw 17 does create an offence, you can't actually be fined for committing it.

 

[Helvellyn]

It is Lincoln Central I am refering to in this case, but my question was more general. If you ask the gateline some staff have no problem letting you through but you get one or two that have the hardline - no access unless you are travelling!

Looks like in general yes you can get on with a child ticket, but it is the money saving worthwhile if you get a day in court for your trouble. That would certainly be an interesing test of innocent until proven guilty. Can you prove I travelled on a train, could I have a look at your CCTV footage from camera X showing I never left the station Not really worth the hastle, I will just spend my time looking for the cheapest CDR ticket.

• Have you asked at the Ticket Office about platform tickets?
• Have you spoken with the Station Supervisor/Manager?
• Have you written to EMT asking about their policy for access to platforms to take photographs when there are barrier gates in operation?

I still don't get why you're going down the route of buying a ticket to X, Child or otherwise, when it potentially creates so many other problems.

 

[Failed Unit]

• Have you asked at the Ticket Office about platform tickets?
• Have you spoken with the Station Supervisor/Manager?

• 
  Yes the policy for Lincoln Central (and all the other stations in the Nigel Carlisle's area, although I think Lincoln is the only gated one) is that you are more than welcome ask at the barrier, as long as you don't interfere with the safe running of the station. As I stated most of the staff are OK, just a couple of arses, but as the policy is to let you on the station doesn't sell tickets.
  

  [*]Have you written to EMT asking about their policy for access to platforms to take photographs when there are barrier gates in operation?

I still don't get why you're going down the route of buying a ticket to X, Child or otherwise, when it potentially creates so many other problems.

Speed, OK so the child issue is on thin ice, but at places such as Newark Northgate, Darlington etc it is quicker just to buy a ticket go on the platform do business and go, rather than track down the station manager. Yes I know some stations require you to sign in and I respect that, but some companies have a policy but local staff seem to have an issue with carrying it out. Not having to speak to them because you have a valid ticket makes a better day for everyone. The worse offending stations been the one where the a 3rd party operate access AKA Manchester Piccadilly!

 

[Helvellyn]

So what about writing to the TOCs whose stations you use most, seeing what their policy is? Sounds like you know EMT's for example, so if you had a letter setting that out uou could just show it to a staff member if they start getting a bit arsy on the gate. Somewher like Picadilly I guess you'd want to write to Network Rail and get their policy in writing. I know it might be a bit of a pain doing that initially, but surely it's going to save you the money from buying those tickets?

 

[Dolive22]

If local staff aren't following policy, ask to see the manager or write to the TOC explaining what happened and giving as much detail as possible. They make policies so to be followed.

If the local staff are being awkward, using an invalid ticket is only going to give them an excuse and make them worse.

 

[Lampshade]

The worse offending stations been the one where the a 3rd party operate access AKA Manchester Piccadilly!

Do elaborate, I've never had any problems there :?

 

[Failed Unit]

Do elaborate, I've never had any problems there :?

This wasn't a case of having a platform ticket, I had a saver and was travelling from Manchester Airport - Market Rasen. The train I arrived on was heading towards Blackpool and arrived on 14 (or was it 13). I got off to and attempted to get out the station for something to eat.

The goons at the top of the bridge refused to let me leave the platform, even to go to the Costa coffee at the top of the platform, stating that my connecting service was going from 13 (or was it 14).

I politely pointed out that a saver was aloud a break of journey, but they said if I past them my journey would be over. The supervisior came over an gave me a Northern leaflet about about penalty fares.

Yes I know that it was a case of poor training of the 3rd party doing the ticket inspections, but the attitude of the 2 involved was dire. I wrote to Network rail and they siad as it was a 3rd party contractor there was little they could do apart from raise it with them. You may guess I was fuming by the end of it, even asking if they could sell me a return from Oxford Road to get out the station, again which was refused as "Oxford Road is a gated station".

 

[Lampshade]

Bit of bad luck there I think, I'd have just said that I was waiting for a connecting service and wanted to use the station facilities in the meantime, while politely but very firmly pointing out that it does not constitute BoJ unless I leave the station itself, maybe quoting the relevant section of the NRCoC while doing so - or better still, if I have my laptop with me, show them the ticket restrictions on Avantix Traveller (NFM05).

Platform tickets however are a different kettle of fish altogether, some of the G4S know what they are and duly let me through when I use one, some just look at me as if I'd just handed them a dead baby hock: