General attitude to short-faring and how to combat it

[Future]

I was surprised around a number of friends and a few passengers’ conversations I have overheard, the general attitude to short-faring us quite alarming. Some seem to believe it is actually perfectly ok to travel ‘just one more stop’ than what is on their ticket, others think RPIs/guards won’t care if they travel ‘only a little further’. This may be down, partly, to the seemingly quite relaxed attitude of guards/RPIs to inspecting tickets regularly post-covid; I personally feel the level of ticket inspections has dropped quite substantially (indeed the other week I travelled all the way from Totnes to Leicester and didn’t have my ticket checked once!). How can the railway combat this and try and eliminate this attitude?

 

[JonathanH]

How can the railway combat this and try and eliminate this attitude?

Vigilence and full ticket checks after the changeover points for traincrew.

 

[Dewedin]

Barriers at every station

 

[1D54]

When an inspection is done and the guard simply says tickets from A B or C please, the number of times when someone is sitting near me that the request applies to and keeps quiet is witnessed on a regular basis. I fully realise that people don't want inspections three or four times on a couple of hours journey but it does kinda show how potentially dishonest some folk are!

 

[Surreytraveller]

No one cares enough

 

[zero]

When an inspection is done and the guard simply says tickets from A B or C please, the number of times when someone is sitting near me that the request applies to and keeps quiet is witnessed on a regular basis. I fully realise that people don't want inspections three or four times on a couple of hours journey but it does kinda show how potentially dishonest some folk are!

I always keep quiet unless the guard stops right by me, but I always have a ticket.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

I was surprised around a number of friends and a few passengers’ conversations I have overheard, the general attitude to short-faring us quite alarming. Some seem to believe it is actually perfectly ok to travel ‘just one more stop’ than what is on their ticket, others think RPIs/guards won’t care if they travel ‘only a little further’. This may be down, partly, to the seemingly quite relaxed attitude of guards/RPIs to inspecting tickets regularly post-covid; I personally feel the level of ticket inspections has dropped quite substantially (indeed the other week I travelled all the way from Totnes to Leicester and didn’t have my ticket checked once!). How can the railway combat this and try and eliminate this attitude?

To be fair, travel past "just one more stop" can be solved with an overdistance excess - unlike some people who tried to sell me a fresh ticket in the Bristol area, instead of a zero fare...

 

[Mcr Warrior]

To be fair, travel past "just one more stop" can be solved with an overdistance excess - unlike some people who tried to sell me a fresh ticket in the Bristol area, instead of a zero fare...

Lucky you weren't PF'd or worse. In any event, why not maybe get the zero fare overdistance excess (assuming one is available) before travelling?

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Lucky you weren't PF'd or worse. In any event, why not maybe get the zero fare overdistance excess (assuming one is available) before travelling?

I approached a member of staff before the end of my validity on said ticket - the staff on the station refused to sell an over distance, whereas the guard on-board did.

Edit: My travel plans changed; why should I need to get such a ticket, where it can even be done at the final station, if appropriate ticketing facilities are not available?

It all comes down to a lack of a "Bristol Stations" ticket - where different stations attract different ticket flows.

 

[Krokodil]

To be fair, travel past "just one more stop" can be solved with an overdistance excess - unlike some people who tried to sell me a fresh ticket in the Bristol area, instead of a zero fare...

This isn't the same thing at all. We're talking about people who deliberately try to stay on past the validity of their ticket. Not always "just one stop", either - in some cases that spring to mind, 50 miles isn't unheard of.

Vigilence and full ticket checks after the changeover points for traincrew.

Some passengers inadvertently draw attention to themselves. Whether it's distinctive clothing, sitting at the front of the train (so if the guard manages to do a full check between stations they'll be fresh in memory just as the train arrives at their supposed destination), their supposed destination being a request stop, a short platform (so that the guard will have reminded them to move forward and then notices when they don't), or they were the only passengers getting off there.

Barriers at every station

So someone buys a ticket from A-B, and from Y-Z. Barriers won't do anything about the bit in the middle.

 

[BeijingDave]

I was surprised around a number of friends and a few passengers’ conversations I have overheard, the general attitude to short-faring us quite alarming. Some seem to believe it is actually perfectly ok to travel ‘just one more stop’ than what is on their ticket, others think RPIs/guards won’t care if they travel ‘only a little further’. This may be down, partly, to the seemingly quite relaxed attitude of guards/RPIs to inspecting tickets regularly post-covid; I personally feel the level of ticket inspections has dropped quite substantially (indeed the other week I travelled all the way from Totnes to Leicester and didn’t have my ticket checked once!). How can the railway combat this and try and eliminate this attitude?

It will gradually be eliminated when barriers with either Oyster card-style systems or using mobile phones with QR codes scanners simply charge the appropriate fare from point A to point B, so I wouldn't worry about people's attitudes too much. In Britain as in many other countries, that will be widespread sooner or later, even at suburban/semi-rural stations.

Then the only way to fare evade will be barrier hopping at both ends, which will be picked up by a facial recognition system.

I don't know if this is good or hugely depressing.

 

[DeverseSam]

It will gradually be eliminated when barriers with either Oyster card-style systems or using mobile phones with QR codes scanners simply charge the appropriate fare from point A to point B, so I wouldn't worry about people's attitudes too much. In Britain as in many other countries, that will be widespread sooner or later, even at suburban/semi-rural stations.

or mindful of climate impact, countries will follow the Luxembourg / Austria model where the passenger pays a nominal yearly usage fee

 

[Krokodil]

It will gradually be eliminated when barriers with either Oyster card-style systems or using mobile phones with QR codes scanners simply charge the appropriate fare from point A to point B, so I wouldn't worry about people's attitudes too much. In Britain as in many other countries, that will be widespread sooner or later, even at suburban/semi-rural stations.

And failing to 'tap' at both ends will result in being charged the fare to/from the terminus.

or mindful of climate impact, countries will follow the Luxembourg / Austria model where the passenger pays a nominal yearly usage fee

With this lot in charge?

 

[plugwash]

And failing to 'tap' at both ends will result in being charged the fare to/from the terminus.

The terminus of what?

You can get from virtually every rail station in the UK to every other rail station in the country without passing through an intermediate barrier. So where should someone with an unmatched tap in Manchester be charged for a journey to? London? Glasgow? Penzance? Wick? Most people would consider that disproportionate given that most travellers are probablly only travelling locally.

So what I'm pretty sure we are going to end up with is a system where regional PAYG systems are operated round major Cities (like the one round London is today) but travel from one region to another will still require a ticket purchased in advance.

 

[jamiearmley]

The terminus of what?

You can get from virtually every rail station in the UK to every other rail station in the country without passing through an intermediate barrier. So where should someone with an unmatched tap in Manchester be charged for a journey to? London? Glasgow? Penzance? Wick? Most people would consider that disproportionate given that most travellers are probablly only travelling locally.

So what I'm pretty sure we are going to end up with is a system where regional PAYG systems are operated round major Cities (like the one round London is today) but travel from one region to another will still require a ticket purchased in advance.

To be fair, the promise of being charged 'from lands end to John o'groats' should be enough of a deterrent to fare avoidance to actually have a positive effect!

 

[Krokodil]

You can get from virtually every rail station in the UK to every other rail station in the country without passing through an intermediate barrier. So where should someone with an unmatched tap in Manchester be charged for a journey to? London? Glasgow? Penzance? Wick? Most people would consider that disproportionate given that most travellers are probablly only travelling locally.

There are no trains from Manchester to Penzance or Wick.

 

[Ian79]

There are no trains from Manchester to Penzance or Wick.

But both are a journey which can easily be completed in one day without leaving the revenue side of the station.

Whilst on the subject of Wick, I can't really see stations on the Far North Line like Invershin or Rogart being fitted with ticket gates for their few hundred passengers per year.

 

[Krokodil]

But both are a journey which can easily be completed in one day without leaving the revenue side of the station.

I'd be amazed if you got that far without encountering an onboard check. That's how tap-in, tap-out works; you start your journey by tapping in, you complete it by tapping out, and at some point you may encounter an onboard check. If you tap-in without tapping-out (or vice versa) then you are charged an incomplete journey fee. This might be the cost of a day ticket for a zone, or it might be a more punitive rate.

If you haven't tapped-in when you are checked at an onboard check, you are assumed to have joined the vehicle at its origin point, and if you fail to tap out after an onboard check you are assumed to have left the vehicle at the terminus. That's how it works on the buses around here (though the onboard check forms part of both tapping-in and tapping-out).

Whilst on the subject of Wick, I can't really see stations on the Far North Line like Invershin or Rogart being fitted with ticket gates for their few hundred passengers per year.

Good job that not a single person has contemplated such a move then, isn't it? The suggestion is a figment of your imagination. I've been clear that I would like to see barriers manned 06:00-22:00 at all stations with entries & exits exceeding 1m per year. If TOCs consider it worth providing barriers at selected smaller stations, or extending the hours at urban ones to cover first to last services then they should do so.

 

[Deerfold]

There are no trains from Manchester to Penzance or Wick.

That's not what they said. They said you can get to them without having to pass through barriers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jun 2023 ==

I'd be amazed if you got that far without encountering an onboard check. That's how tap-in, tap-out works; you start your journey by tapping in, you complete it by tapping out, and at some point you may encounter an onboard check. If you tap-in without tapping-out (or vice versa) then you are charged an incomplete journey fee. This might be the cost of a day ticket for a zone, or it might be a more punitive rate.

If you haven't tapped-in when you are checked at an onboard check, you are assumed to have joined the vehicle at its origin point, and if you fail to tap out after an onboard check you are assumed to have left the vehicle at the terminus. That's how it works on the buses around here (though the onboard check forms part of both tapping-in and tapping-out).

But you might have entered the system before the point where that vehicle started. I regularly don't get checked on the first train of my most common long distance journey (and about 1 in 5 times on the second, longer section). And you might leave the system long after wherever that vehicle finished its journey.

 

[mangyiscute]

The terminus of what?

You can get from virtually every rail station in the UK to every other rail station in the country without passing through an intermediate barrier. So where should someone with an unmatched tap in Manchester be charged for a journey to? London? Glasgow? Penzance? Wick? Most people would consider that disproportionate given that most travellers are probablly only travelling locally.

So what I'm pretty sure we are going to end up with is a system where regional PAYG systems are operated round major Cities (like the one round London is today) but travel from one region to another will still require a ticket purchased in advance.

Something like AI could be used to read past journey history and make an educated guess on what the journey would be, and then charge the sufficient amount for that journey - then have a scheme like tfl's refund scheme to allow people to change this if they actually travelled elsewhere.

 

[SargeNpton]

Something like AI could be used to read past journey history and make an educated guess on what the journey would be, and then charge the sufficient amount for that journey - then have a scheme like tfl's refund scheme to allow people to change this if they actually travelled elsewhere.

Hopefully, that's not the same AI that decides which adverts we might be interested in on this forum.

 

[fandroid]

Whilst on the subject of Wick, I can't really see stations on the Far North Line like Invershin or Rogart being fitted with ticket gates for their few hundred passengers per year.

It would be most impressive if someone took themselves to Invershin or Rogart from Manchester, just to avoid paying. Even if a local did it for regular local journeys, I'm sure staff would soon become acquainted with the dodgy characters who chanced it in such a way. A challenge and ejection at another remote station might be all that was required to encourage better behaviour.

 

[BeijingDave]

But both are a journey which can easily be completed in one day without leaving the revenue side of the station.

Whilst on the subject of Wick, I can't really see stations on the Far North Line like Invershin or Rogart being fitted with ticket gates for their few hundred passengers per year.

Hence I suggested 'semi-rural', not rural.

 

[JonathanH]

I've been clear that I would like to see barriers manned 06:00-22:00 at all stations with entries & exits exceeding 1m per year.

Once the barriers are being staffed 06:00 to 22:00, they might as well be staffed from 15 minutes before the first train to 15 minutes afterwards, with the barrier staff having responsibility for unlocking and locking the station, and the permanent locking of 'night gates'.

It is often in the late evening when there is the greatest fear of anti-social behaviour. While current barriers aren't fit for purpose because people are intent on just forcing them open, they do act as a reasonable deterent for the majority of passengers.

As e-tickets become (even) more prevalent, and indeed it perhaps becomes compulsory to scan the barcode at ticket gates, it will become easier to spot short faring by studying the data and identifying where, for example, a passenger buys tickets for the start and end of a journey and the patterns of those tickets being scanned from a particular account. Staffing barriers from first to last train clearly helps with that.

 

[Krokodil]

No, I can't really see the value of keeping the late shift on until the last train at 1am and bringing the early shift in for the first train at 3am. In most cases that's never going to pay itself. If there are particular problem trains (the last stopper out of Euston has been mentioned) then by all means target them. For a national baseline however, 06:00-22:00 is a suitable minimum for stations with a footfall of 1m.

Metros are different of course, Merseyrail and London Underground already do first train to last train barriers.

 

[Deerfold]

No, I can't really see the value of keeping the late shift on until the last train at 1am and bringing the early shift in for the first train at 3am. In most cases that's never going to pay itself. If there are particular problem trains (the last stopper out of Euston has been mentioned) then by all means target them. For a national baseline however, 06:00-22:00 is a suitable minimum for stations with a footfall of 1m.

Metros are different of course, Merseyrail and London Underground already do first train to last train barriers.

That sounds like quite an increase in staff that will be required - my local station gets around 0.8 million passengers a year and is currently not staffed at all. My next nearest has twice that and is staffed until just after 1900. Neither currently has gates.