German public transport ticketing post D-Ticket

[mrmartin]

It seems to me that the transport ticketing situation is a bit odd post Deutschland Ticket? Obviously it's great that the Deutschland ticket exists but it leaves the other tickets set at a very strange price.

Take Aachen to Dortmund. This is €77.20 return on the RE service. But the D-Ticket is nearly €20 cheaper. Also noticed this even in local transport - for example the NRW day ticket is nearly 40eur, but you can get unlimited German wide travel for a month for very little more. Must be very few people that want to spend 40eur on a day ticket but not use trains enough nationwide for the month to not spend the extra 18eur.

Is there a plan to withdraw these other fares over time? There must be so many ticketing rules that are barely used now (tbh I suspect given the complexity of some of the ticketing a lot had very little use previously).

I think they could also do with pushing it to tourists more. I had it in my head the ticket was 99eur a month (not sure why, think I read articles about it going up a lot while back) so didn't investigate it further for my most recent trip. And even then I knew that there was somewhat complex cancellation rules.

This forum helpfully showed me a vendor which allows you to buy it with 1 day cancellation but I stupidly tried the eezyNRW system which is in another thread. But it would be great to be able to buy this on a 30 day "one off" basis. It could even be for 7 or 14 days without subscription for visitors at the same price and would be very appealing.

A lot of people would imo buy this kind of product even if it works out more expensive for short stays, as it avoids having to know anything about the local transport system when you land (usually quite tired). I certainly would, it's around the same price as a one way airport Uber/taxi

 

[stadler]

The issue with the EUR58.00 ticket is that it is only available as a subscription and only available online. You can not just turn up at a station and buy one. I imagine this puts a lot of people off buying it. They have certainly made it as difficult to get as possible.

On my recent trips to Germany i have continued buying other more expensive tickets because of this. I have never bought a public transport ticket online in my life and i have never bought any sort of subscription in my life and i have no interest in doing either. So i imagine a lot of other people are put off by this. The other more expensive tickets will continue to have a market until they make the EUR58.00 ticket available to buy at the station as a paper ticket without a subscription.

The old temporary EUR9.00 monthly ticket was perfect. It was so easily available. It was sold in all ticket machines and at ticket offices and even onboard some trains. So i fail to understand why they could not continue doing this when they introduced the new permanent EUR58.00 monthly ticket.

 

[dutchflyer]

Right now on the way to DE=Germany again, use the DE-ticket when there for some short trips, perhaps even on a Stadler unit and having used it the last years/summer the often overfull trains do not support the idea that many are put off by it-in fact I rather gather that many, esp. the younger generation, is charmed by having it all on their cherished fone (called ´handy´ in Germany).
Some 10-12% of all those living in DE hold the ticket but I gather that in many trains (just seeing around when checks are done) that some 60-80% of all people In a train/bus travel on the ticket. The price hike since 1/1/25 also did not put off many people. And using another provider it IS in fact possible to even start it in the current month and end it again at the one but last day at the latest.
The problem was that it was only temporary, so local operators had to keep their own and yes, much more pricey, system on. Often they have however some local special incentives to make it still worthwhile for some. Note that in DE the other types often require much longer times to keep it-often the full first year. Plus there are also often local arrangements with councils, companies, schools/uni´s etc.
As has by now often be said here: that 9€ summer was clearly a one-off special offer, just after covid ended to get those who left the transport systems back on again.

 

[andersj]

One of the main goals with the D-Ticket is promoting digitalization of the ticketing system in Germany. Another goal is to reduce complexity and costs related to ticketing. There are huge costs behind non-operational bureaucracy that can possible be redirected to more busses and more trains.

 

[doc7austin]

The issue with the EUR58.00 ticket is that it is only available as a subscription and only available online. You can not just turn up at a station and buy one. I imagine this puts a lot of people off buying it. They have certainly made it as difficult to get as possible.

I don't think that is intended.

If you are a foreign tourist visiting Germany (and taking a lot of public transportation), you can easily buy the Deutschlandticket online.
I recommend to do that before starting the trip to Germany.
Yes, the Deutschlandticket is a subscription model, but it can be cancelled at a month's period of notice.

Example:
You plan an extensive trip through Germany from July 20 to July 27.
It is best to buy the Deutschlandticket beforehand (before July 10!) and cancel the subscription immediately after booking. That way you only have to pay EUR 58 for one month.

 

[The exile]

The issue with the EUR58.00 ticket is that it is only available as a subscription and only available online. You can not just turn up at a station and buy one. I imagine this puts a lot of people off buying it. They have certainly made it as difficult to get as possible.

As the purpose of the ticket (beyond greenwashing) is to encourage people to change their travel habits on along-term / permanent basis, the needs of a few tourists are hardly at the forefront. Most tourists will not be spending every day doing masses of travelling (other than very localised in cities) and for groups, the local tickets are probably going to be better value. As for the subscription model - season ticket purchase in Germany has worked like that for years - even if it is strange to us.

 

[AdamWW]

I don't think that is intended.

If you are a foreign tourist visiting Germany (and taking a lot of public transportation), you can easily buy the Deutschlandticket online.
I recommend to do that before starting the trip to Germany.
Yes, the Deutschlandticket is a subscription model, but it can be cancelled at a month's period of notice.

Example:
You plan an extensive trip through Germany from July 20 to July 27.
It is best to buy the Deutschlandticket beforehand (before July 10!) and cancel the subscription immediately after booking. That way you only have to pay EUR 58 for one month.

It's still somewhat more complicated than most ways of buying tickets, especially if travelling as a family.
Usually one person can just do the organising and buy tickets for everyone in a single transaction.
And I'm not sure there's a practical way to get a D-ticket for children from outside Germany, even accepting that it would be at full cost.

As the purpose of the ticket (beyond greenwashing) is to encourage people to change their travel habits on along-term / permanent basis, the needs of a few tourists are hardly at the forefront. Most tourists will not be spending every day doing masses of travelling (other than very localised in cities) and for groups, the local tickets are probably going to be better value. As for the subscription model - season ticket purchase in Germany has worked like that for years - even if it is strange to us.

So long as the existing tickets remain, maybe. But if the goal of the D-ticket is to get everyone using their smartphones to travel and to simplify ticketing, the obvious next step is to withdraw everything else except for point to point tickets.

Which would be somewhat inconvenient for visitors.

Even in Switzerland with its somewhat visitor-hostile fare structure, there is a version of the half fare pass aimed at non residents (and which doesn't require a smartphone to use).

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

Some Verkehrsverbünde have removed and/or simplified a lot of the other types of tickets, for example VRR or HVV.

The price level or the continued existence of the Deutschlandticket after 2025 at all, are not guaranteed.

So the different Verkehrsverbünde all deal with that situation differently, some not bothering with changing their fare structure at all. Since those and the people deciding the future of Deutschlandticket are all different, the result is a hodgepodge fare system.

 

[johncrossley]

Have the authorities in Austria removed tickets more expensive than the Climate Ticket?

 

[The exile]

Some Verkehrsverbünde have removed and/or simplified a lot of the other types of tickets, for example VRR or HVV.

The price level or the continued existence of the Deutschlandticket after 2025 at all, are not guaranteed.

So the different Verkehrsverbünde all deal with that situation differently, some not bothering with changing their fare structure at all. Since those and the people deciding the future of Deutschlandticket are all different, the result is a hodgepodge fare system.

See - it’s amazing how many things the Germans copy from us!

 

[The exile]

I think some other season tickets in Germany are available as proper single purchase non subscription tickets. They also sell the Bahn Card 100 which is an annual season ticket that is basically the same as the EUR58.00 monthly ticket but also gives travel on ICE and IC and EC services. This ticket seems to be available without a subscription.

They are indeed (as is the BC100 - I’ve had both!). The point I was making is that having something intended to be long term on a subscription basis is not an alien concept to the target market.

Some trains even have ticket machines onboard, like many DB Regios so if you're running late and there is a queue at the t/o or the machines or they are not working you can board anyway. I guess Germans don't lie to ticket guards about when they board

From personal (disinterested) observation - the first thing that happens when inspectors get on is that the onboard ticket machines (and/or Entwerter) are disabled so there’s no opportunity.

 

[andersj]

It's important to notice that the D-Ticket is heavily subsidized and not really intended for tourists. Part of the reason for the subscription model is to make it unattractive for tourists.

However there are vendors such as mo.pla that offers credit card payment and cancellation of the subscription up until the last day of the month.

 

[mrmartin]

It's important to notice that the D-Ticket is heavily subsidized and not really intended for tourists. Part of the reason for the subscription model is to make it unattractive for tourists.

However there are vendors such as mo.pla that offers credit card payment and cancellation of the subscription up until the last day of the month.

No I do get that - but it must cost a fortune to run all the "standard" ticketing infrastructure and if the D-Ticket is going to continue it doesn't seem very cost efficient to keep that just for visitors. Ironically Germany will end up subsiding tourists/visitors more keeping that infrastructure running than just making it easier to purchase D-Ticket.

I guess it really does depend how long term the D-Ticket is. I suspect politically very difficult to get rid of it now.

 

[Starmill]

So i fail to understand why they could not continue doing this when they introduced the new permanent EUR58.00 monthly ticket.

Has it not occurred to you that the €9 ticket being way too widely available was actually the problem as perceived by its funder in the first place? Or indeed that the funder, i.e. ultimately the German parliament, actually quite likes the idea that people such as you pay over the odds for your journey, while people who live in Germany who will actually be voting for them get an enormous subsidy on their tickets?

 

[signed]

I expect that scheme to go bust in less than 5 years, it's an incredible idea, but sustainable absolutely not at those price.

At the very least, it should be 12-months commitement only.

Especially when you look at pricing in Austria and Switzerland of comparable schemes

A KlimaTicket Ö for the whole of Austria is €1400 per year in a much smaller country, a GA travelcard is ~7000CHF/year.

Both are basically (yes, I know there are monthly variants of the GA, but that's irrelevant) 12-months commitement only

 

[AdamWW]

I expect that scheme to go bust in less than 5 years, it's an incredible idea, but sustainable absolutely not at those price.

At the very least, it should be 12-months commitement only.

Especially when you look at pricing in Austria and Switzerland of comparable schemes

A KlimaTicket Ö for the whole of Austria is €1400 per year in a much smaller country, a GA travelcard is ~7000CHF/year.

Both are basically (yes, I know there are monthly variants of the GA, but that's irrelevant) 12-months commitement only

Shouldn't any comparison take into account that the Deutschland-ticket doesn't include long distance services, unlike the Austrian and Swiss schemes you mention?

And in any case most things are going to look cheap if compared to Swiss prices.

 

[signed]

Shouldn't any comparison take into account that the Deutschland-ticket doesn't include long distance services, unlike the Austrian and Swiss schemes you mention?

Fair point indeed

 

[Starmill]

It would be more sustainable long-term if offered at a twelve-month commitment. They could offer it up-front payment of €700 and do a deal with a bank, credit union or other payments processor such as Klarna or PayPal to give interest free repayments over a year to all German residents. The current halfway house is a really lucky positive for those in the know!

 

[andersj]

No I do get that - but it must cost a fortune to run all the "standard" ticketing infrastructure and if the D-Ticket is going to continue it doesn't seem very cost efficient to keep that just for visitors. Ironically Germany will end up subsiding tourists/visitors more keeping that infrastructure running than just making it easier to purchase D-Ticket.

There will always be a need for single trip tickets, but having as many people as possible on an automatic subscription or use other digital solutions will significantly reduce the amount of ticketing infrastructure needed. The real cost drivers are the outdoor cash accepting ticket machines and of course the manned ticket offices.

 

[duesselmartin]

It seems to me that the transport ticketing situation is a bit odd post Deutschland Ticket? Obviously it's great that the Deutschland ticket exists but it leaves the other tickets set at a very strange price.

Take Aachen to Dortmund. This is €77.20 return on the RE service. But the D-Ticket is nearly €20 cheaper. Also noticed this even in local transport - for example the NRW day ticket is nearly 40eur, but you can get unlimited German wide travel for a month for very little more. Must be very few people that want to spend 40eur on a day ticket but not use trains enough nationwide for the month to not spend the extra 18eur.

Is there a plan to withdraw these other fares over time? There must be so many ticketing rules that are barely used now (tbh I suspect given the complexity of some of the ticketing a lot had very little use previously).

I think they could also do with pushing it to tourists more. I had it in my head the ticket was 99eur a month (not sure why, think I read articles about it going up a lot while back) so didn't investigate it further for my most recent trip. And even then I knew that there was somewhat complex cancellation rules.

This forum helpfully showed me a vendor which allows you to buy it with 1 day cancellation but I stupidly tried the eezyNRW system which is in another thread. But it would be great to be able to buy this on a 30 day "one off" basis. It could even be for 7 or 14 days without subscription for visitors at the same price and would be very appealing.

A lot of people would imo buy this kind of product even if it works out more expensive for short stays, as it avoids having to know anything about the local transport system when you land (usually quite tired). I certainly would, it's around the same price as a one way airport Uber/taxi

if you stay in NRW, the eezy app is an alternative as it caps the price at €58.

 

[NCT]

Does VRS still publish that PDF of all their fare zone / ticket type combinations? I used it back it 2017, but don't seem able to find it on the current VRS website. Thanks.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Some Verkehrsverbünde have removed and/or simplified a lot of the other types of tickets, for example VRR or HVV.
The price level or the continued existence of the Deutschlandticket after 2025 at all, are not guaranteed.
So the different Verkehrsverbünde all deal with that situation differently, some not bothering with changing their fare structure at all. Since those and the people deciding the future of Deutschlandticket are all different, the result is a hodgepodge fare system.

As I understand it from reports, the vibes are that the Deutschlandticket will be retained for the length of the new parliament at the current price of €58.
That still has to be agreed by the new coalition and voted through before the current deal expires at the end of 2025.

 

[DeverseSam]

Take Aachen to Dortmund. This is €77.20 return on the RE service. But the D-Ticket is nearly €20 cheaper.

There’ll be plenty of car-owning Germans who use local transport only occasionally, for cheap short trips on tram or train.

 

[nwales58]

Does VRS still publish that PDF of all their fare zone / ticket type combinations? I used it back it 2017, but don't seem able to find it on the current VRS website. Thanks.

Follow the link to VRS Gemeinschaftstsriff:

Tarifbestimmungen

www.vrs.de

100s of pages. At least VRR do a more customer-friendly brochure than that.

 

[The exile]

There’ll be plenty of car-owning Germans who use local transport only occasionally, for cheap short trips on tram or train.

No to mention many (car-owning or not) who next-to-never leave their local area but travel a lot within it.

 

[A S Leib]

Apart from age, such as the Jugendticket-BW, are there any other cases of the D-Ticket being offered for below €58 per month?

 

[rg177]

I've just done a fair tidy up of this thread - a reminder that this thread is for the discussion of the Deutschlandticket and what ticketing may look like in Germany in the future - not a debate on buying tickets online.

 

[mrmartin]

Follow the link to VRS Gemeinschaftstsriff:

Tarifbestimmungen

www.vrs.de

100s of pages. At least VRR do a more customer-friendly brochure than that.

Thanks for the link. This is what I mean - it must take so much effort to put this system together, and that's just one region.

Assuming the D-Ticket is going to be a long term thing, surely one 'end game' is something along these lines:

1) D-Ticket for most "regular" users. You could consider BahnCard 100 a sort of 'super D-Ticket', with the idea that 80%+ of passengers (by volume, not passenger-km) are using this method. Concession/company passes could be integrated into this easily, giving a discount on the D-Ticket (or it for free).
2) Single/return QR based app/paper "eTickets" for DB trains (inc. IC/ICE)
3) Contactless payments for 'single' local journeys (zone based system with tap on/tap off for larger cities, flat fee for smaller towns (tap on only)?).

If you do this then you could get that 300page PDF down to probably a dozen pages and remove a huge amount of ticket machines, replacing them with just cheap NFC contactless readers (or to go further, put them on vehicles only).

I must say on this recent trip to Germany I am amazed how quickly credit/debit cards have spread. Last time pre pandemic I was in Germany it was a complete nightmare, constantly having to find ATMs. This time I'm amazed to see a lot of coffee shops and bars being entirely cashless. Managed to only get caught out once with one place that didn't take cards. I wouldn't have thought it culturally possible to go to a system like I proposed above, but that has 100% changed imo.

 

[DeverseSam]

Deutschlandticket reminds me of the Pret “5 drinks” subscription - simply too good to be true, so make it the most of it while it’s so heavily subsidised!

 

[The exile]

Deutschlandticket reminds me of the Pret “5 drinks” subscription - simply too good to be true, so make it the most of it while it’s so heavily subsidised!

The irony of the D-ticket is that too big a take-up will also endanger it - certainly some services are getting overwhelmed in the way that they were when the Wochenendticket was introduced 25-odd years ago and its going to be hard to justify vast expenditure on increasing capacity with a flat revenue stream.