Glasgow St Enoch - Plans to transform Glasgow car park into huge multi-storey hotel, flats and pub development

[och aye]

Not sure if this was the right sub-forum to post this in, so admins, feel free to move it.

Basically a company has submitted plans to build a large development on the NCP King Street car park, which is on the old approach to the former St Enoch station, which if built would kybosh any future plan to build a hypothetical Glasgow St Enoch High Speed station (above ground at least). Yes, I know its probably Alice in Wonderland stuff, but given the lack of capacity at Central, would some kind future proofing not be wise, or is there no chance that a return of some form of a rebuilt St Enoch will ever be needed in the next 30-40 years?

Article: https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/plans-transform-glasgow-car-park-18444306

Google Map view of car park site: https://www.google.com/maps/place/N...eet/@55.8555655,-4.2505012,708m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Not sure if this was the right sub-forum to post this in, so admins, feel free to move it.

Basically a company has submitted plans to build a large development on the NCP King Street car park, which is on the old approach to the former St Enoch station, which if built would kybosh any future plan to build a hypothetical Glasgow St Enoch High Speed station (above ground at least). Yes, I know its probably Alice in Wonderland stuff, but given the lack of capacity at Central, would some kind future proofing not be wise, or is there no chance that a return of some form of a rebuilt St Enoch will ever be needed in the next 30-40 years?

Article: https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/plans-transform-glasgow-car-park-18444306

Google Map view of car park site: https://www.google.com/maps/place/N...eet/@55.8555655,-4.2505012,708m/data=!3m1!1e3

No chance! The shopping centre has been built on the site of the station.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Not sure if this was the right sub-forum to post this in, so admins, feel free to move it.

Basically a company has submitted plans to build a large development on the NCP King Street car park, which is on the old approach to the former St Enoch station, which if built would kybosh any future plan to build a hypothetical Glasgow St Enoch High Speed station (above ground at least). Yes, I know its probably Alice in Wonderland stuff, but given the lack of capacity at Central, would some kind future proofing not be wise, or is there no chance that a return of some form of a rebuilt St Enoch will ever be needed in the next 30-40 years?

Article: https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/plans-transform-glasgow-car-park-18444306

Google Map view of car park site: https://www.google.com/maps/place/N...eet/@55.8555655,-4.2505012,708m/data=!3m1!1e3

Glasgow Central is where HSR trains will go. No one is interested in a St Enoch HSR terminal other than a few council folk a long time ago who only saw things in terms of getting a difficult bit of the city centre regenerated, rather than any other wider transport or economic issues.

The STPR did include the concept of a neo-St Enoch as an overflow for commuter services from the west and south west (so that existing and easily-rebuilt links would be used to get onto the existing City Union line). However it's pretty clear that the preference of all transport bodies in Scotland is for metro-ification and concentrating on Glasgow Central. The best established plans are for some sort of line from around Carstairs up to Rutherglen, bypassing all the commuter routes and stations. That neatly lands trains from Carlisle on the easternmost bank of platforms at Central that they already use today without interacting with many or any other train services. Meanwhile, the only plans to enhance platform capacity for LDHS trains (as in, requiring 265m+ length platforms) are on the eastern side too. The two projects can then go ahead independently, as there's no need for 400m trains at Glasgow Central (yet) but this would be an obvious output of any major reconstruction project.

With the plans for Waverley being as dramatic (complete re-roofing over a raised deck concourse) as you could get, we can probably expect something not incomparable at Central over the medium-long term too.

The nice thing about regeneration schemes like this one proposed for the car park is that they stop the need for silly distractions like completely reconfiguring the rail network. If the place can get this sort of investment with no plan for HSR or other City Union line rail services on the horizon, then it's pretty clear they're not required.

 

[clc]

The possibility of a new city centre station was confirmed in the 2016 Scotland Route Study. The location wasn’t specified but the only realistic site for it would be St Enoch.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

The possibility of a new city centre station was confirmed in the 2016 Scotland Route Study. The location wasn’t specified but the only realistic site for it would be St Enoch.

You do realise St Enoch has been built on.

 

[Carntyne]

The possibility of a new city centre station was confirmed in the 2016 Scotland Route Study. The location wasn’t specified but the only realistic site for it would be St Enoch.

The possibility was confirmed. Doubt you'll see it though.

 

[route101]

If we ever see Crossrail happening , you may see a station at St Enochs.

 

[66C]

A north south tunnel would probably be a better investment than a new city centre station. This would create more capacity in Central and Queen St.

 

[edwin_m]

A north south tunnel would probably be a better investment than a new city centre station. This would create more capacity in Central and Queen St.

It would also allow all services routed via the tunnel not only to continue to call at the station they served before, so existing users don't have to change their journeys, but also connect to the other main station, making other journeys easier. Running some trains into a new station that doesn't interchange particularly well with either of the existing ones doesn't really help anybody.

 

[Dr Hoo]

This proposal seems to match the 'Sheffield Victoria HS2 stub end terminus' idea, which was also seen (by a few 'city fathers') as a lazy way of regenerating an out-of-the-way corner on the fringe of a city centre regardless of the complete absence of plausible interchange opportunities with existing conventional rail, tram and bus or proximity to many traffic objectives.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

This proposal seems to match the 'Sheffield Victoria HS2 stub end terminus' idea, which was also seen (by a few 'city fathers') as a lazy way of regenerating an out-of-the-way corner on the fringe of a city centre regardless of the complete absence of plausible interchange opportunities with existing conventional rail, tram and bus or proximity to many traffic objectives.

Sheffield Victoria though isn't been sited by a shopping centre like St Enoch.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Sheffield Victoria though isn't been sited by a shopping centre like St Enoch.

Somehow I hadn't envisaged that the main purpose of high-speed lines was to facilitate shopping trips.

Surely it is better to serve 'business' and 'academic' areas, for example, and also provide good links with connecting public transport? (I accept that the St Enoch NCP car park isn't actually that far away from parts of the Strathclyde Campus but that seems to be more fortuitous than a central justification.)

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Somehow I hadn't envisaged that the main purpose of high-speed lines was to facilitate shopping trips.

Surely it is better to serve 'business' and 'academic' areas, for example, and also provide good links with connecting public transport? (I accept that the St Enoch NCP car park isn't actually that far away from parts of the Strathclyde Campus but that seems to be more fortuitous than a central justification.)

What i was saying is that St Enoch is impossible to reinstate as the site is now a shopping centre unlike Sheffield Victoria which is free to use.

 

[Carntyne]

St Enoch (actually the King Street car park) would be of more use as a southern bus station for the city centre, with connections to Argyle Street station.

 

[clc]

There are 2 options for the St Enoch site. One option is to build a new station for suburban services on the car park, and the other, more ambitious option is to redevelop the shopping centre into a HSR terminus come shopping centre, like a smaller scale St Pancras. A HSR terminus at St Enoch would be close enough to Central for onward connectivity and obviously would have the subway at its entrance too. That said, I think the HSR terminus will probably be built on the disused granite piers over the Clyde.

 

[alangla]

This proposal comes round every few years but always seems to lead to nothing so I suspect this time will be no different. In terms of a southern bus station, there’s already one of sorts on the northern edge of the car park, but it could do with better shelter arrangements. In short, I reckon this is a non-starter but rail use of that site at any point in the future is extremely unlikely.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sheffield Victoria though isn't been sited by a shopping centre like St Enoch.

I suggest “hasn’t been affected by a shopping centre” would have been better...

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I suggest “hasn’t been affected by a shopping centre” would have been better...

That would have been better.

I believe one report known as the Glasgow Metro report proposed an alternative which included:

1. a North south tunnel from Central to Queen Street (instead of Glasgow Crossrail)
2. an expanded Central station by extending platforms to the south of the current station to allow 400 metre trains to run into the station

Page 32-35 : https://www.glasgow.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=45064&p=0

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is the City of Glasgow Railway - City Union ("Tron") line, which crosses the North and South of Glasgow, and which was once used to access St. Enoch station, still in use?

 

[clc]

Is the City of Glasgow Railway - City Union ("Tron") line, which crosses the North and South of Glasgow, and which was once used to access St. Enoch station, still in use?

Yes, for empty stock movements.

 

[Speed43125]

That would have been better.

I believe one report known as the Glasgow Metro report proposed an alternative which included:

1. a North south tunnel from Central to Queen Street (instead of Glasgow Crossrail)
2. an expanded Central station by extending platforms to the south of the current station to allow 400 metre trains to run into the station

Page 32-35 : https://www.glasgow.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=45064&p=0

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An interesting read. Thanks for that

 

[jopsuk]

Just imagine, there's an alternate world where St Enoch was kept rather than Queen Street (one for the fantasy proposals section maybe)

 

[InOban]

Is the City of Glasgow Railway - City Union ("Tron") line, which crosses the North and South of Glasgow, and which was once used to access St. Enoch station, still in use?

All the 156 and 158 trains for the whl and maryhill services use it to access their depot.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

All the 156 and 158 trains for the whl and maryhill services use it to access their depot.

Thanks. So presumably slightly circuitous ECS movements only, so as to access Corkerhill (?) depot, just off the (Paisley) Canal line, having crossed over from the North side of the Clyde.

Does that then mean that the last regularly scheduled passenger workings along the "Tron" line itself would have been as long ago as c. 1967 when St. Enoch station was closed?

 

[Carntyne]

There are 2 options for the St Enoch site. One option is to build a new station for suburban services on the car park, and the other, more ambitious option is to redevelop the shopping centre into a HSR terminus come shopping centre, like a smaller scale St Pancras. A HSR terminus at St Enoch would be close enough to Central for onward connectivity and obviously would have the subway at its entrance too. That said, I think the HSR terminus will probably be built on the disused granite piers over the Clyde.

Suburban services from where though? Keep them in Central where the majority of people want to get to. It's the same as the idea of sending suburban services around the City Union line to Queen Street Low Level via a new curve that's cropped up before, adding journey time and complexity where it's not needed.

 

[Highland37]

What's the point in a HSR terminus if high speed rail isn't coming to Scotland? HS2 is an England only project.

 

[Speed43125]

What's the point in a HSR terminus if high speed rail isn't coming to Scotland? HS2 is an England only project.

As far as barnett formula calculations are concerned, correct. But HS2 trains will come to scotland, and there have been for some time various pushes for HS2 to be extended further north (I Believe HSR Scotland were pushing very hard for an extension to Newcastle). Glasgow will need to be able to handle HS2 trains of 400m, which is generally planned to be built to conform with GC loading gauge as well, for possible extensions in future.
I don't grasp the point of your question, HS2 phase 1 (even before that and Phase 2a were combined together) once built was always going to be at least 1 tph to Glasgow.

 

[Highland37]

???? HS2, as in a high speed line, is not coming to Scotland. It's not connected to the Barnett Formula.

Yes the classic compatible trains will come to Scotland much in the way that the TGV goes to Bourg St Maurice.

 

[Speed43125]

???? HS2, as in a high speed line, is not coming to Scotland. It's not connected to the Barnett Formula.

Yes the classic compatible trains will come to Scotland much in the way that the TGV goes to Bourg St Maurice.

Well there you go. You've answered your question. There needs to be a 400m capable platforms constructed to handle HS2 trains.

 

[Highland37]

I wasn't asking a question. I was point out that HS2 is an England only project with some of the trains, slower than the 390s due to the poor infrastructure, coming to Glasgow. It's not the game changer for Scotland everyone says it is.