Gloucester (Eastgate) - past and present

[70014IronDuke]

Some random thought process got me to thinking of Gloucester, more specifically Gloucester Eastgate, the old service and the city's current state of satisfaction with what it has today.

1) Historical. Of course, since the closure of Eastgate in 75 (?) XC services (or whatever they were called at the time) have largely omitted a Gloucester stop, running Bristol to Cheltenham directly.

Qn was this always possible? I mean, did Midland/LMS trains have the ability to use the GWR tracks and avoid Gloucester Eastgate? (At least, i thought they were GWR tracks), or did Midland/LMS/LMR trains have to run via Eastgate, even if non-stop?

Indeed, were Midland trains ever scheduled to omit Gloucester?

2) Did the good burghers of Gloucester - or even the bad ones - just take the closure of Eastgate lying down? Were there any pledges to maintain a minimum cross country service? Surely it was obvious that BR was seeking to cut out a stop and speed up Bristol - Birmingham trains, and closing Eastgate allowed them to do this while also flogging off land. In competition with Cheltenham, Gloucester couldn't win, so tough on Gloucester.

3) How do the burghers of Gloucester feel today? AFAIK, one XC train per day was stopping and reversing at Gloucester (Central) - not sure if this still runs. Of course, there is a far better Cardiff - Nottingham service than anything that existed in 1975, so one could say that Gloucester doesn't do badly - but it is, of course, far inferior cf the service offered to Cheltenham.

Do folks bother to change trains, or do they go by bus or just drive if they want to go to Sheffield/York/Newcastle etc (and, in the other direction, beyond Bristol to Plymouth etc)? In other words, does the present arrangement hamper growth of rail travel to/from Glocuester?

 

[Harbornite]

I think some residents would have been happy with the removal of all those level crossings, like this:

 

[pdeaves]

Not directly answering any of your questions, but the post-privatisation XC service used to call at Gloucester and reverse (like it used to do a whole lot of other things, like serve Didcot, Ramsgate and Brighton).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

From what I remember, more trains used to reverse in Central after the closure of Eastgate than do now.
There was a later BR inter city policy to only stop at either Gloucester or Cheltenham, but not both, to reduce journey times.
Gradually, XC increasingly bypassed Gloucester (but the local services through Central increased).
Cardiff locals go through to Cheltenham now, for instance, which wasn't the case at one time.
I think there has always been joint use of the Standish-Cheltenham direct lines.

Having said that, my 1958 LMR timetable shows all "Midland" trains stopping at both stations, even the Devonian and Pines Express.
Some trains also stopped at Worcester SH of course.

 

[Welshman]

IIIC it was possible for non-stopping Bristol-Birmingham trains to by pass Gloucester Eastgate, although I think most stopped.

 

[30907]

From what I remember, more trains used to reverse in Central after the closure of Eastgate than do now.

Indeed they did (though there were no Bristol locals then). The public reasons for closing Eastgate were rationalisation and removal of level crossings. Central's "down" platform was extended Eastwards for the Cross Country workings.

 

[Merthyr Imp]

Bristol - Birmingham trains not calling at Gloucester Eastgate were able to by-pass it just as they now by-pass Central, using the same line.

Yes, for the last 20-25 years or so there has been the direct Cardiff - Nottingham service, which is fine if you're going to Nottingham, but it's worth remembering that prior to that Cardiff was part of the Cross-Country network, with services via Chepstow and Gloucester Central direct to Leeds, Newcastle, etc, etc. So nowadays, passengers from Cardiff have to change (usually at Bristol Parkway) in order to reach those sort of destinations.

 

[125Forever]

New user in peace.

I used to live in Gloucester for a short while, and I believe it was situated near (or on) the ASDA superstore?

It is quite sad that the city only gets a limited XC service (the last time I saw a XC train there was when Ian Poole was filming there and a double-headed 221 came in with a service to Plymouth, though only 1 of the 2 units went on to Plymouth strangely enough...) and I would back a Cardiff-Glasgow/Edinburgh service via Newport and Gloucester coming into being (a 221 unit currently works a daily Cardiff-Manchester service, so maybe that could run to Glasgow/Edinburgh instead?)

The only other thing which could be done (and probably won't be done whilst Richard Graham is Gloucester's MP as he hates the idea) is to build a station at Metz Way where the Railway Triangle is and call it Gloucester Parkway. Worcester is getting a parkway station built soon (where the Worcester-Evesham-Oxford line crosses over the Bristol-Birmingham line) so why not Gloucester - which is the bigger city of the two and likely to grow further in the next five-ten years.

 

[Mintona]

New user in peace.

I used to live in Gloucester for a short while, and I believe it was situated near (or on) the ASDA superstore?

It is quite sad that the city only gets a limited XC service (the last time I saw a XC train there was when Ian Poole was filming there and a double-headed 221 came in with a service to Plymouth, though only 1 of the 2 units went on to Plymouth strangely enough...) and I would back a Cardiff-Glasgow/Edinburgh service via Newport and Gloucester coming into being (a 221 unit currently works a daily Cardiff-Manchester service, so maybe that could run to Glasgow/Edinburgh instead?)

The only other thing which could be done (and probably won't be done whilst Richard Graham is Gloucester's MP as he hates the idea) is to build a station at Metz Way where the Railway Triangle is and call it Gloucester Parkway. Worcester is getting a parkway station built soon (where the Worcester-Evesham-Oxford line crosses over the Bristol-Birmingham line) so why not Gloucester - which is the bigger city of the two and likely to grow further in the next five-ten years.

I really don't like the Gloucester Parkway triangle idea. It's too far from the city centre to be useful for people going into town, and there wouldn't be any scope to run a train between the 2 stations to provide connections into town.

I personally feel that a much better idea is a station at Quedgeley, near to the M5 and Hunts Grove housing development. Whilst it wouldn't solve every issue, I believe it solves more than any other solution. It provides a second station in Gloucester, a good few miles from the first but in an area that around a quarter of the city's residents live, what with Quedgeley itself plus new housing at Kingsway and Hardwicke. If provided with a large enough car park it would attract people from all around to use the train. It would also vastly improve commuting from the south of Gloucester to places like Swindon and Bristol, where lots of people who live in the area work.

It would also mean passengers from Gloucester could connect with southbound XC services without having to go north via Cheltenham every time. It would slow down XC services by around 3 minutes to make the stop. But that's vastly better than the 10-15 it would currently take with the reversal at Gloucester's main station. Let's not forget Gloucester is a huge city, with an awful lot of revenue available to XC if they want it.

From what I understand, passive planning has been made for a new station at Quedgeley, but whether that will ever amount to anything, who knows?

 

[Merthyr Imp]

...a 221 unit currently works a daily Cardiff-Manchester service, so maybe that could run to Glasgow/Edinburgh instead?)

But instead of going via Gloucester it's routed from Newport down to Bristol Temple Meads, then back up through Parkway and like everything else avoids Gloucester.

 

[70014IronDuke]

From what I remember, more trains used to reverse in Central after the closure of Eastgate than do now.
There was a later BR inter city policy to only stop at either Gloucester or Cheltenham, but not both, to reduce journey times.

Yes, I was thinking this might well have been the practice at the beginning after I first posted yesterday.

Did this mean a loco hanging around, ready to connect up pronto (a la Nottingham in Cl 45 days?), or did the loco run round, I wonder? I suspect the latter, which would have extended times further, of course.

Gradually, XC increasingly bypassed Gloucester (but the local services through Central increased).

What a surprise, eh? As if BR would do anything by stealth?

I think there has always been joint use of the Standish-Cheltenham direct lines.

Yes, if Wikipedia is anything to go by, you are correct. (I should have looked this up yesterday, and not bothered with this thread!)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloucester_Eastgate_railway_station

Having said that, my 1958 LMR timetable shows all "Midland" trains stopping at both stations, even the Devonian and Pines Express.
Some trains also stopped at Worcester SH of course.

Yes. I imagine it was mainly goods traffic which used the older avoding lines.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I really don't like the Gloucester Parkway triangle idea. It's too far from the city centre to be useful for people going into town, and there wouldn't be any scope to run a train between the 2 stations to provide connections into town.

I personally feel that a much better idea is a station at Quedgeley, near to the M5 and Hunts Grove housing development. Whilst it wouldn't solve every issue, I believe it solves more than any other solution. It provides a second station in Gloucester, a good few miles from the first but in an area that around a quarter of the city's residents live, what with Quedgeley itself plus new housing at Kingsway and Hardwicke.

Well, depends exactly where you think the station would go, but looking at a map, it seems a bit of an exaggeration to say it would serve a quarter of the population. I defer to your better knowledge, of course - i am not a local.

It would also mean passengers from Gloucester could connect with southbound XC services without having to go north via Cheltenham every time. It would slow down XC services by around 3 minutes to make the stop. But that's vastly better than the 10-15 it would currently take with the reversal at Gloucester's main station. Let's not forget Gloucester is a huge city, with an awful lot of revenue available to XC if they want it.

I dunno, I get the feeling XC doesn't like inserting new stops much. It might work, i suppose, if the car parking and, maybe bus links to any new station were good. Otherwise might just end up with the Bristol locals and Swindon line services.

 

[edwin_m]

A typical 1970s council attitude would have been to welcome the closure of Eastgate because the removal of the level crossings made traffic flow better. I don't know if this actually was their view but I wouldn't be surprised.

I certainly remember being on the predecessors of XC workings that reversed in Gloucester Central in the late 70s, so not long after closure of Eastgate and when the remains of its platforms were still visible. I can't remember whether the same loco ran round.

With the introduction of HSTs and later Voyagers the time penalty of a reversal would have been much less. However, post-2002 the priority of XC (where it makes its money) is a fast and frequent service between major centres where there is potential for business travel if the train can compete with the motorway. The attractiveness of such a service between Birmingham and Bristol would be much reduced if some of the trains went into Gloucester. XC wouldn't gain much revenue because there is already a reasonable service between Gloucester and Birmingham, and Gloucester to Bristol is shorter so the fares are less.

However I do think Gloucester-Bristol has a very poor service, and resolving this would remove most of the need for XC trains to reverse at Gloucester. Ironically when looking at National Rail I had to change the date, as XC are currently serving Gloucester every hour, presumably due to the Bromsgrove works. The "normal" service is a GWR stopper every hour, which I vowed to avoid a few years ago when it went over to 2+3 150s. Interestingly it is possible to go via Cheltenham at the same fare without being overtaken, but with a 26min wait there southbound, I can't see anyone wanting to.