Gloucester to Blackpool, June 1940 (Troops)

[RiverdaleDIY]

Hello from Canada!

I’ve been asking "Blackpool railway station" questions at a local Blackpool History Facebook Group and this forum was suggested to me.

There likely isn’t a simple answer to my simple question, but I’d be interested to hear what some railway experts have to say about it...

Here is the short version of my enquiry:

In June 1940, (June 26 or 27th to be precise), what would be the most likely route for recently arrived Polish aircrew to travel from Gloucester to Blackpool?
And perhaps more importantly, which station in Blackpool would they likely have arrived at, given their final destination was RAF Squire’s Gate?

Here are some more details:

I’m writing a book about my Polish Grandfather (In-Law) and his incredible wartime journey across Europe, and as a POW. After the Fall of France, and his evacuation from the French Coast, he arrived in Plymouth on June 26, 1940. The ship reportedly arrived at 17:16, which doesn't leave much time that day to start travelling north.

However, I know they travelled “to Gloucester, then up to Blackpool”, and were in Blackpool by the 27th. From that, I am inferring (perhaps incorrectly) that they did not stop or change trains beyond Gloucester. I also know there is more than one “Blackpool” station, including one at Squire’s Gate, which is where they ended up.

Although I do not know if that last leg ("Blackpool" to Polish Depot @ Squire's Gate) occurred directly by train, or in lorries and on foot. Given it was movement of troop, they could have very easily been marched from whatever station they arrived at, over to Squire's Gate.

Forgive my ignorance, as I have absolutely no idea how troop movements around the country were coordinated with the railway system. It seems in most cases that regularly scheduled trains were used, as opposed to special services put on. But I'm sure some helpful and knowledgable folks here can set me straight.

Thank you for any insights you may be able to provide.

 

[6Gman]

Hello from Canada!

I’ve been asking "Blackpool railway station" questions at a local Blackpool History Facebook Group and this forum was suggested to me.

There likely isn’t a simple answer to my simple question, but I’d be interested to hear what some railway experts have to say about it...

Here is the short version of my enquiry:

In June 1940, (June 26 or 27th to be precise), what would be the most likely route for recently arrived Polish aircrew to travel from Gloucester to Blackpool?
And perhaps more importantly, which station in Blackpool would they likely have arrived at, given their final destination was RAF Squire’s Gate?

Here are some more details:

I’m writing a book about my Polish Grandfather (In-Law) and his incredible wartime journey across Europe, and as a POW. After the Fall of France, and his evacuation from the French Coast, he arrived in Plymouth on June 26, 1940. The ship reportedly arrived at 17:16, which doesn't leave much time that day to start travelling north.

However, I know they travelled “to Gloucester, then up to Blackpool”, and were in Blackpool by the 27th. From that, I am inferring (perhaps incorrectly) that they did not stop or change trains beyond Gloucester. I also know there is more than one “Blackpool” station, including one at Squire’s Gate, which is where they ended up.

Although I do not know if that last leg ("Blackpool" to Polish Depot @ Squire's Gate) occurred directly by train, or in lorries and on foot. Given it was movement of troop, they could have very easily been marched from whatever station they arrived at, over to Squire's Gate.

Forgive my ignorance, as I have absolutely no idea how troop movements around the country were coordinated with the railway system. It seems in most cases that regularly scheduled trains were used, as opposed to special services put on. But I'm sure some helpful and knowledgable folks here can set me straight.

Thank you for any insights you may be able to provide.

How many people were travelling? Was his travel from France to Plymouth part of a wider evacuation? It ties up with the end of Operation Ariel which evacuated large numbers from France after Dunkirk had fallen. I don't know the detail of Operation Ariel but with the Dunkirk evacuation troops were rapidly moved by the trainload to army bases such as Salisbury Plain then moved on to other locations. So it may be that there was an initial move to Gloucester and then (perhaps after a day or two of rest) to longer-term billets.

On the specific since there were LMS stations in Gloucester and in Blackpool I would suspect LMS with, if using scheduled trains, changes at Birmingham New Street and Crewe/Preston (possibly both). Wartime forces travel often involved long waits when changing trains! In my younger days if I told any man of a certain age that I lived in Crewe the answer was usually "oh I spent hours there during the war".

In Blackpool, Blackpool South would be most convenient for Squires Gate but that's no guarantee!

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Was your grandfather evacuated from St. Jean de Luz near the Spanish border in S.W. France? A large contingent of the Polish Army escaped from there on 25th June for Plymouth - in that case special trains would have been provided to onward destinations.

Otherwise the 'normal' route back then Plymouth to Blackpool would be a through GWR Liverpool or Manchester service to Crewe (via the Severn Tunnel), and then LMS to Blackpool (usually changing at Preston). Squires Gate, of course, has its own station with the airfield adjacent.

Travelling via Gloucester would have involved changing at Bristol T.M., Birmingham N.S. and/or Crewe/Preston which makes me think it was a special train, at least part of the way.

 

[jp4712]

I'd say that on the balance of probabilities, he travelled by special troop train. One of the unsung aspects of Operation Dynamo (as the Dunkirk evacuation was termed) was the huge logistical effort by the railways. The military historians stop the story when the forces touched on British soil - they forget the massive effort using hundreds of special trains to then move them to safer areas to recuperate, re-equip and re-train. But of course your grandfather didn't come from Dunkirk: if he landed at Plymouth there's a high chance he left France via a port further west such as St Malo or Cherbourg, or in the Bay of Biscay. I understand the point that @Sir Felix Pole makes about St. Jean de Luz, but I wonder if that voyage might take too long for grandfather to be in Plymouth by 1716 on the 26th.

Anyway, to his trip within the UK.

If it was a special troop train then the extensive network in those days meant there were several possible routes - and they could well have been deliberately routed away from the big cities to reduce congestion (and the risk of bombing) using quieter secondary lines.

From Plymouth, the Great Western Railway (GWR) would have taken them Plymouth > Exeter > Taunton > Bristol; then over London, Midland & Scottish Railway lines (but perhap still behind a GWR locomotive) to Gloucester, where they possibly stayed the night and changed trains - I think your grandfather is hinting that they changed trains there.

Then the LMS would probably take them Gloucester* > Cheltenham > Birmingham > Wolverhampton > Stafford > Crewe > Warrington > Wigan > Preston; and from there, a left turn towards the coast. At Kirkham & Wesham they'd have taken a left turn towards Lytham and St Annes; and in all likelihood as it was a special train, it would have terminated at Squires Gate, which the LMS had opened in 1931. There were extensive train servicing facilities just a mile or two up the line on the approach to Blackpool Central station.

One possibility that's there is that instead of the train 'turning left' at Kirkham & Wesham, it went directly ahead on the 'direct' line (now closed) to Blackpool South. This line was primarily meant for expresses and holiday trains to the coast, but due to the war these wouldn't be there. So that direct line would be quiet and less congested, and it's only about 15 minutes' walk from Blackpool South station to where the RAF station was.

So in summary, the answer is 'if the train turned left at Kirkham & Wesham, your grandfather would have alighted at Squires Gate station; if the train took the direct route to Blackpool at Kirkham, he probably alighted at Blackpool South.'

* An alternative from Gloucester would be to avoid the congestion in Birmingham: this would *possibly* meant the GWR taking them Gloucester > Worcester > Bewdley > Shrewsbury > Crewe, where it would be taken forward by the LMS as above. This is very much a long way round, but it would avoid the congested West Midlands area and I know that some really quite exotic routes were followed during the operation. Incidentally, although this route is only a possibility, a small part of it is today a wonderful steam heritage line (the Severn Valley Railway) and if you go to the UK, you should ride on it to get a good idea of the train travel that your grandfather experienced.

I think it's less likely that he took service trains - especially if, is your grandfather infers, he didn't change trains. I don't have a 1940 LMS timetable but I have a 1946 one (when services were still basically at wartime levels). I don't wish to bore you with the details, especially as he probably took a special troop train anyway, but suffice it to say that it would be a tedious journey changing at Birmingham, Crewe and Preston.

 

[Gloster]

I would presume that there was only a limited number of the party who spoke more than a few words of English, so it is quite possible that they had on or two servicemen, probably RAF, to get them to Blackpool. Similarly, I think there was always a bit of checking of all those who arrived to make sure that the Germans hadn’t slipped any spies into the group, so it might be a couple of days before they set off north.

To make it worthwhile running a special train, which was within the railway’s capabilities even at a time when coaches were desperately needed, would mean that there would have to be several hundred men to be moved. If there weren’t, then possibly they would go as a party under escort of one type or other.

Would they actually have been going to the holiday camp at Squire‘s Gate: I believe that this opened in 1938? If so, then I think that Squire’s Gate station is even more likely.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Would they actually have been going to the holiday camp at Squire‘s Gate: I believe that this opened in 1938? If so, then I think that Squire’s Gate station is even more likely.

Yes, the holiday camp was requistioned - special trams to convey the men to the rifle-ranges at Rossall for target practice were even run!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Sunday at 22:11 ==

M.V. 'Ettrick' P & O liner sailed from St. Jean de Luz late on 24th June arriving in Plymouth at 1716 on 26th June.

She was too big to get into Bayonne, so diverted to St. Jean instead. Diverted to Plymouth on the way home because of overcrowding in Falmouth.

Almost certainly a special train would have been arranged to Gloucester for the night.

Sadly the ship was torpedoed in 1942.

Operation Aerial

FRIDAY 26 JUNE 1940​

IMOGEN with STRATHAIRD arrived Liverpool (1014).

RESTIGOUCHE reported (1645) that she had on board Captain Allen R.N., 13 Officers and 104 ratings from H.M.C.S. FRASER, 6 ratings from CALCUTTA, 2 R.E. Officers and 24 O.R. R.E. 2 Polish Generals, 12 Officers and men. Refugees:- 6 British, 1 French, 1 Spanish, 3 Polish from St. Jean de Luz.

N.O.I/C Falmouth reported (1719) that ships were overcrowded there with French ratings and small parties were still arriving.

ETTRICK arrived Plymouth (1716)

RESTIGOUCHE arrived Plymouth (1715)

C.S.2. reported (2105) CALCUTTA E.T.A. 0845/27., with 3 Officers and 30 ratings (8 injured), survivors from H.M.C.S. Fraser. Wreckage to be lifted from forecastle and only one bower anchor left, which may be fractured.

 

[RiverdaleDIY]

Hello everyone, thank you all fro your detailed and knowledgeable input...very much appreciated.

Yes, this was part of Operation Aerial, and he was indeed evacuated from St. Jean de Luz in France. It seems he was likely aboard the ETTRICK, which departed on June 24 and arrived in Plymouth the late afternoon of the 26th. The diary of a man he is suspected to have been travelling with, noted “Train from Plymouth to Gloucester, then up to Blackpool”. Unfortunately that’s all the info. I have currently. But it makes me think something of reasonable significance occurred at Gloucester, either a train change or lengthy delay., to warrant a specific mention. However, it couldn’t have been too lengthy as they were in Blackpool (@ RAF Squire’s Gate) by the 27th.

I will read over all your responses in detail, and again thank you very much.

 

[WesternLancer]

I'd say that on the balance of probabilities, he travelled by special troop train. One of the unsung aspects of Operation Dynamo (as the Dunkirk evacuation was termed) was the huge logistical effort by the railways. The military historians stop the story when the forces touched on British soil - they forget the massive effort using hundreds of special trains to then move them to safer areas to recuperate, re-equip and re-train. But of course your grandfather didn't come from Dunkirk: if he landed at Plymouth there's a high chance he left France via a port further west such as St Malo or Cherbourg, or in the Bay of Biscay. I understand the point that @Sir Felix Pole makes about St. Jean de Luz, but I wonder if that voyage might take too long for grandfather to be in Plymouth by 1716 on the 26th.

Anyway, to his trip within the UK.

If it was a special troop train then the extensive network in those days meant there were several possible routes - and they could well have been deliberately routed away from the big cities to reduce congestion (and the risk of bombing) using quieter secondary lines.

From Plymouth, the Great Western Railway (GWR) would have taken them Plymouth > Exeter > Taunton > Bristol; then over London, Midland & Scottish Railway lines (but perhap still behind a GWR locomotive) to Gloucester, where they possibly stayed the night and changed trains - I think your grandfather is hinting that they changed trains there.

Then the LMS would probably take them Gloucester* > Cheltenham > Birmingham > Wolverhampton > Stafford > Crewe > Warrington > Wigan > Preston; and from there, a left turn towards the coast. At Kirkham & Wesham they'd have taken a left turn towards Lytham and St Annes; and in all likelihood as it was a special train, it would have terminated at Squires Gate, which the LMS had opened in 1931. There were extensive train servicing facilities just a mile or two up the line on the approach to Blackpool Central station.

One possibility that's there is that instead of the train 'turning left' at Kirkham & Wesham, it went directly ahead on the 'direct' line (now closed) to Blackpool South. This line was primarily meant for expresses and holiday trains to the coast, but due to the war these wouldn't be there. So that direct line would be quiet and less congested, and it's only about 15 minutes' walk from Blackpool South station to where the RAF station was.

So in summary, the answer is 'if the train turned left at Kirkham & Wesham, your grandfather would have alighted at Squires Gate station; if the train took the direct route to Blackpool at Kirkham, he probably alighted at Blackpool South.'

* An alternative from Gloucester would be to avoid the congestion in Birmingham: this would *possibly* meant the GWR taking them Gloucester > Worcester > Bewdley > Shrewsbury > Crewe, where it would be taken forward by the LMS as above. This is very much a long way round, but it would avoid the congested West Midlands area and I know that some really quite exotic routes were followed during the operation. Incidentally, although this route is only a possibility, a small part of it is today a wonderful steam heritage line (the Severn Valley Railway) and if you go to the UK, you should ride on it to get a good idea of the train travel that your grandfather experienced.

I think it's less likely that he took service trains - especially if, is your grandfather infers, he didn't change trains. I don't have a 1940 LMS timetable but I have a 1946 one (when services were still basically at wartime levels). I don't wish to bore you with the details, especially as he probably took a special troop train anyway, but suffice it to say that it would be a tedious journey changing at Birmingham, Crewe and Preston.

Interesting to read all this

The point about using less well used secondary route is a good one, but @RiverdaleDIY might be interested to know that for many (much?) of the routes you have listed it would be possible to take a train today along the same railway lines and re-trace the relatives journey, should there be a wish to do so

These routes can be seen on the modern day official UK railway maps available here (not the clearest of geographical maps I have to say)

Maps of the National Rail Network | National Rail

View and download maps of the National Rail network in Great Britain, including London and South East maps, regional maps for England, Scotland and Wales, accessibility maps and more.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

and I suspect people here would know a good source to view scanned maps of the UK railways in c1940 that would show all the routes open at that time - presumably GWR and LMS route maps would be the ones to look at

Here is an old GWR map with reasonable ability to zoom in (it should be appreciated that the UK railway companies often opted not to show very clearly the routes of other UK railways who operated in their geographical areas...presumably such that in peace time the customer would not get the idea that there was available alternative company a passenger might choose to consider using....)

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co433203/great-western-railway-map

 

[etr221]

The 'Operation Aerial' website https://www.naval-history.net/xDKWDa-Aerial.htm , previously linked above, shows ETTRICK loading 300 Poles on the 23rd, up to her capacity - presumably 'Polish Grandfather (In-Law)' was one of these.
I would think it likely that 300 would have warrranted a special train, especially if Squires Gate was just a 'reception centre' for sorting them out: for a ship arrival of 1716, by the time they'd been landed from ship, and loaded onto train, maybe a midnight departure, so perhaps an early morning stop at Gloucester for food/refreshment, before on to Blackpool.

The NLS have a Zoomable OS map (10 mile to the inch scale) of the British railway system in 1946, one of a series produced for planning purposes I think, at https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=12.0&lat=51.51000&lon=-0.17380&layers=10rail&b=7&o=100 (little changed since th 1920s). Or see Railmap Online - has various layers for historic and modern networks.

 

[Elecman]

Squires Gate station had sidings and also at one time I think a spur into the airport itself

 

[Gloster]

Squires Gate station had sidings and also at one time I think a spur into the airport itself

There was a line into the airport area, but it only opened in September 1940 and was probably only used for goods traffic to the Vickers factory in the North-East corner of the airfield. I doubt that troop trains ever used it: it was only a short distance, so quicker to walk than mess about getting a passenger train on to the line.

 

[RiverdaleDIY]

Interesting to read all this

The point about using less well used secondary route is a good one, but @RiverdaleDIY might be interested to know that for many (much?) of the routes you have listed it would be possible to take a train today along the same railway lines and re-trace the relatives journey, should there be a wish to do so

These routes can be seen on the modern day official UK railway maps available here (not the clearest of geographical maps I have to say)

Maps of the National Rail Network | National Rail

View and download maps of the National Rail network in Great Britain, including London and South East maps, regional maps for England, Scotland and Wales, accessibility maps and more.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

and I suspect people here would know a good source to view scanned maps of the UK railways in c1940 that would show all the routes open at that time - presumably GWR and LMS route maps would be the ones to look at

Here is an old GWR map with reasonable ability to zoom in (it should be appreciated that the UK railway companies often opted not to show very clearly the routes of other UK railways who operated in their geographical areas...presumably such that in peace time the customer would not get the idea that there was available alternative company a passenger might choose to consider using....)

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co433203/great-western-railway-map

Thanks for this, very informative and interesting to consider.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 15:06 ==

The 'Operation Aerial' website https://www.naval-history.net/xDKWDa-Aerial.htm , previously linked above, shows ETTRICK loading 300 Poles on the 23rd, up to her capacity - presumably 'Polish Grandfather (In-Law)' was one of these.
I would think it likely that 300 would have warrranted a special train, especially if Squires Gate was just a 'reception centre' for sorting them out: for a ship arrival of 1716, by the time they'd been landed from ship, and loaded onto train, maybe a midnight departure, so perhaps an early morning stop at Gloucester for food/refreshment, before on to Blackpool.

The NLS have a Zoomable OS map (10 mile to the inch scale) of the British railway system in 1946, one of a series produced for planning purposes I think, at https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=12.0&lat=51.51000&lon=-0.17380&layers=10rail&b=7&o=100 (little changed since th 1920s). Or see Railmap Online - has various layers for historic and modern networks.

Thanks for this, I will look into the map links you've posted.

Yes, he could well be one of those "300" noted. It could also just be a coincidence that the numbers roughly matchup. As he was stationed at a very small radio training centre (Matha, France) which reportedly had ~300 men stationed there. There are a number of references to "Poles/Polish" in the Admiralty War Dairy, and it was previous thought he might be on the Arandorra Star as that arrived in Liverpool the day he was known to arrive in Blackpool. But additional evidence came to light, from someone else that was stationed in Matha. Their personal memoirs indicated they arrived in Plymouth, then travelled to Blackpool via Gloucester. Given the very small size of the Matha unit, it seems likely they travelled together. Which is how we ended up with the Ettrick and her arrival in Plymouth.

Obviously we will never know for certain, but interesting nonetheless. Thanks again.