• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Grand Central services at St Pancras / could LNER use Liverpool Street?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Spursglory

On Moderation
Joined
28 Oct 2021
Messages
21
Location
Chatham
Interesting to see that Grand Central are going to serve St Pancras in late January. Services will be to York and Bradford Interchange.

I wonder if it is a one off or permanent during engineering works.

I wonder if LNER will use Liverpool Street at all in future?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

stevieinselby

Member
Joined
6 Jan 2013
Messages
746
Location
Selby
Interesting to see that Grand Central are going to serve St Pancras in late January. Services will be to York and Bradford Interchange.

I wonder if it is a one off or permanent during engineering works.

I wonder if LNER will use Liverpool Street at all in future?
Hull Trains has used St Pancras when there have been engineering works preventing access to Kings Cross, so no reason why Grand Central shouldn't do as well.

Presumably you're thinking LNER running via Ely, Cambridge and Harlow? Not sure how much capacity there would be on that route to accommodate LNER trains without them crawling along at the speed of a stopper, and to fit the trains in at Liverpool Street – given the extra time that would take, I don't know whether it would be feasible for LNER even if there was capacity.
 

Clarence Yard

Established Member
Joined
18 Dec 2014
Messages
2,945
Hull Trains originally had Liverpool Street as an alternative station but there are severe capacity constraints on the Lea Valley route, even at weekends, so it wasn’t really an option.
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
9,845
Location
Hampshire
180s back to St Pancras for a third time no less. It'll be a sense of Deja vu!
 

800001

Established Member
Joined
24 Oct 2015
Messages
5,353
LNER have done one trial train from Bounds Green across to Liverpool Street. (route validation test).

They have no crew trained for services to Operate between Cambridge and Liverpool Street, so unless they get route conductors for both drivers and Train Managers, lner into Liverpool Street will not happen for many many months.
 

Whistler40145

Established Member
Joined
30 Apr 2010
Messages
6,147
Location
Lancashire
Isn't the easiest route using the Canonbury Curve, North London Line and Temple Mills to access London Liverpool Street?
 

Clarence Yard

Established Member
Joined
18 Dec 2014
Messages
2,945
Only if you can get as far up the ECML as Finsbury Park. Most possessions don’t afford you that luxury.
 

Magdalia

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2022
Messages
4,929
Location
The Fens
I wonder if LNER will use Liverpool Street at all in future?

The Lea Valley route has Stansted Expresses every 15 minutes and stopping trains in between, all on a 2 track railway. There is no capacity for diverted ECML trains.

Isn't the easiest route using the Canonbury Curve, North London Line and Temple Mills to access London Liverpool Street?
Only if the block is south of Finsbury Park, the January 2025 block goes all the way to Peterborough and Royston. This diversionary route uses the Carpenters Road curve near Stratford, not via Temple Mills, and was used by diverted Liverpool Street-Cambridge trains in the 1970s and 1980s.

When there are blocks between Hitchin and Peterborough, but not via Royston, there is enough capacity to path 1tph LNER via Royston. This has happened various times in recent years. The way for LNER to provide a service to/from London, without a bus, when the line is blocked south of Peterborough and Royston, is as follows:

  • use the 1tph diversion path to run to Cambridge, then go empty to Royston to reverse. Passengers could change at Cambridge for Liverpool Street, with cross platform interchange on the platform 7/8 island, and Greater Anglia running all of their Cambridge North-Liverpool Street trains with 10 car class 720s.
  • returning northbound the Cambridge station layout inhibits picking up there, so the northbound trains would start from Cambridge North, giving cross platform interchange with the Greater Anglia Liverpool Street trains terminating in the bay platform.
  • The empty trains would reverse in platform 2 at Royston, with the Royston-Ely/Kings Lynn shuttle using platform 1.
  • Once Cambridge South opens, it will be possible to do the interchanges there.
 
Last edited:

Whistler40145

Established Member
Joined
30 Apr 2010
Messages
6,147
Location
Lancashire
Another alternative is for LNER to terminate at Peterborough and then run a service to Liverpool Street using 755s
 

Magdalia

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2022
Messages
4,929
Location
The Fens
Another alternative is for LNER to terminate at Peterborough and then run a service to Liverpool Street using 755s
It is not an option because there are no paths in the Lea Valley.

And where are you going to find the class 755s? It would need at least 5 units just to provide an hourly service of 4 car trains.
 

306024

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2013
Messages
3,974
Location
East Anglia
It is not an option because there are no paths in the Lea Valley.

And where are you going to find the class 755s? It would need at least 5 units just to provide an hourly service of 4 car trains.
And that’s before you work out how to crew it, which would be an interesting academic exercise in itself. A complete non starter!
 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
20,736
Location
West of Andover
Makes a change that Grand Central are running, usually they don't bother with running trains to London if the ECML is closed.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
21,231
Makes a change that Grand Central are running, usually they don't bother with running trains to London if the ECML is closed.
It isn't always 'don't bother' though is it? It is that they don't get priority for the limited paths available.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
29,132
Location
Redcar
It isn't always 'don't bother' though is it? It is that they don't get priority for the limited paths available.
For me the "don't bother" aspect is that they tend to run nothing at all not even Sunderland - York, Bradford - Doncaster. Obviously you cannot always get paths to somewhere like St Pancras like HT have done in previous years, but they've always seemed to just chuck the towel in and stay home. This is a pleasing to see though I note they're still not bothering serving north of York even with this diversion in place...
 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
20,736
Location
West of Andover
For me the "don't bother" aspect is that they tend to run nothing at all not even Sunderland - York, Bradford - Doncaster. Obviously you cannot always get paths to somewhere like St Pancras like HT have done in previous years, but they've always seemed to just chuck the towel in and stay home. This is a pleasing to see though I note they're still not bothering serving north of York even with this diversion in place...
Indeed, on some weekends when Kings Cross was closed for remodelling (etc), they ran nothing at all. Whereas Hull Trains ran a limited service into St Pancras first stop Selby.

Something must have changed within GC management to pay for the route conductors for St Pancras - Doncaster for the one train they plan to run to York.
 

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
1,858
For me the "don't bother" aspect is that they tend to run nothing at all not even Sunderland - York, Bradford - Doncaster. Obviously you cannot always get paths to somewhere like St Pancras like HT have done in previous years, but they've always seemed to just chuck the towel in and stay home. This is a pleasing to see though I note they're still not bothering serving north of York even with this diversion in place...
Remembering they don't get any subsidy - maybe there are not passenger numbers from Low Moor to Pontefract Monkhill to justify running a train?
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
29,132
Location
Redcar
Remembering they don't get any subsidy - maybe there are not passenger numbers from Low Moor to Pontefract Monkhill to justify running a train?
Of course and yet HT when they've done it for years are nearly always first stop Selby (indeed once first stop Brough as there was also a diversion via Goole!) omitting all their ECML calls in favour of their "branch" calls.
 

Trainbike46

Established Member
Joined
18 Sep 2021
Messages
3,285
Location
belfast
It is not an option because there are no paths in the Lea Valley.

And where are you going to find the class 755s? It would need at least 5 units just to provide an hourly service of 4 car trains.
and really, they'd need to be at least 11-car, so you'd need 15 units
 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
20,736
Location
West of Andover
I wonder if GC will try and run their service as a pair of 180s (which I'm pretty sure will fit at St Pancras as EMR ran a pair for the brief period they had 180s). Would potentially make better use of the path if it was a 10 coach train rather than a single 5 coach unit.
 

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
1,858
Of course and yet HT when they've done it for years are nearly always first stop Selby (indeed once first stop Brough as there was also a diversion via Goole!) omitting all their ECML calls in favour of their "branch" calls.
But they still go to London?
 

3RDGEN

Member
Joined
6 Mar 2023
Messages
396
Location
Hull
Something must have changed within GC management to pay for the route conductors for St Pancras - Doncaster for the one train they plan to run to York.
They have just submitted an extension request to their Track Access agreement so perhaps best to look interested until that's signed off?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top