Great British Railways: Livery, branding and appearance?

[Bletchleyite]

Creating a separate thread for this as it's quite a big topic, potentially.

It's mentioned on the other thread that Peter Hendy wants to bring back what is to me a very dated design scheme - black on white signage, Rail Alphabet font (albeit a slightly tweaked version, but it still shouts 1980s) and the double arrow. The latter is clearly a very strong piece of branding and should be retained, however personally I think the version in a circle looks more modern.

Clearly "Great British Railways" does include a bit of "retro" in the manner than gWr does, for example. But do we really want to go back to that?

Personally I think we should get Best Impressions in, who did an absolutely superb piece of work for London Midland* in collaboration with David Whitley, managing to do a great job of "creating desire" for what was actually a very basic half-commuter, half-budget operation with some serious problems e.g. overcrowding. Stenning just seems to have this ability to make public transport look really good, which is what we sorely need.

Any other thoughts?

* I believe Stagecoach "beachball" was also his doing - an excellent scheme which still looks modern and makes "new Stagecoach" look like a cross between a school bus and a Fisher Price toy - any others?

 

[Purple Orange]

I’m unsure about the livery as such, but if Great British Railways is taken forward, I’d expect ‘GBR’ to feature. One overarching brand, with sub brands sitting below it, for long distance services and regional brands all under the GBR moniker, much like we do today with Southern, South Eastern, South Western, Northern, etc.

I doubt we will see things like Arriva or First or Stagecoach appear, despite those companies might operate the services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m unsure about the livery as such, but if Great British Railways is taken forward, I’d expect ‘GBR’ to feature. One overarching brand, with sub brands sitting below it, for long distance services and regional brands all under the GBR moniker, much like we do today with Southern, South Eastern, South Western, Northern, etc.

I doubt we will see things like Arriva or First or Stagecoach appear, despite those companies might operate the services.

I wonder if we might actually see things like "Northern - by Great British Railways" rather than one single overarching branding. There are some good brands out there - gWr for example is a superb piece of marketing prowess, alongside the "friendly nostalgia" of the Famous Five advertising. On the other hand Avanti's branding is awful - there is no "Italian flair" in it at all.

 

[Irascible]

I don't see what's wrong with Rail Alphabet which is rather older than the 1980s - to be frank the branding shouts 60s, a period of branding I personally like but obviously that *is* personal - although you could just use Frutiger to keep the tie in with the other large national service, the NHS ( who used to use Rail Alphabet too ). The Double Arrow is used for stations on maps, so that's really a no-brainer frankly.

I bet it ends up as gBR ( G//BR? something modern and ridiculous that ends up as BR in about 8 years... ). GBR is a bit close to GWR ...

 

[Annetts key]

As the English language and the Latin/Roman alphabet are rather old and dated, maybe the ‘modern’ railway should not use these either...

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I agree I think the NR logo in the circle looks better, but GBR is such a mouthful - its just latent fear of the British Rail brand. Which does what it says on the tin. No complaints really over the Rail Alphabet, I even like seeing it on old BR signage that still exists here and there.

Interesting to know what will happen to new franchises like Avanti. Will their trains need yet another new livery applied to them?

Personally, I'd like to see the NSE italics typeface making a return. It was a nice font that had too short a life.

 

[Purple Orange]

I wonder if we might actually see things like "Northern - by Great British Railways" rather than one single overarching branding. There are some good brands out there - gWr for example is a superb piece of marketing prowess, alongside the "friendly nostalgia" of the Famous Five advertising. On the other hand Avanti's branding is awful - there is no "Italian flair" in it at all.

Well I’d have thought it might be GBR Northern or GBR Southern. Some franchise brand names are good, such as Trans Pennine Express, but perhaps those longer distance brands might be lost to one all encompassing GBR brand. For example, GWR’s London to Bristol, Penzance, Cardiff, Oxford etc might be wrapped up with a GBR Express or GBR Intercity, but the GWR commuter/regional services under a different brand name.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well I’d have thought it might be GBR Northern or GBR Southern. Some franchise brand names are good, such as Trans Pennine Express, but perhaps those longer distance brands might be lost to one all encompassing GBR brand. For example, GWR’s London to Bristol, Penzance, Cardiff, Oxford etc might be wrapped up with a GBR Express or GBR Intercity, but the GWR commuter/regional services under a different brand name.

TPE of course isn't a particularly new brand - BR themselves came up with it well before sectorisation, yet alone privatisation. I've seen ageing Mk2s with it written on the side when I was a kid.

 

[365 Networker]

How about this logo -
Search for a trade mark - Intellectual Property Office (ipo.gov.uk)
The renewal date is November 2027, so it's possible.

I also found this:-
Search for a trade mark - Intellectual Property Office (ipo.gov.uk)
Its an NSE logo, but it's been licensed by London & South Eastern Railway Limited (SouthEastern) until April next year which is interesting - could it be ready for a possible rebrand?

 

[43096]

Creating a separate thread for this as it's quite a big topic, potentially.

It's mentioned on the other thread that Peter Hendy wants to bring back what is to me a very dated design scheme - black on white signage, Rail Alphabet font (albeit a slightly tweaked version, but it still shouts 1980s) and the double arrow. The latter is clearly a very strong piece of branding and should be retained, however personally I think the version in a circle looks more modern.

Old does not necessarily = bad. Or do you think TfL should change their look away from using the current font simply because it's been that way since the 1930s or whenever?

Rail alphabet had the advantage of being clear, legible and was pretty much consistently applied. We badly need that on the visual mess that is the railway.

Clearly "Great British Railways" does include a bit of "retro" in the manner than gWr does, for example. But do we really want to go back to that?

Personally I think we should get Best Impressions in, who did an absolutely superb piece of work for London Midland* in collaboration with David Whitley, managing to do a great job of "creating desire" for what was actually a very basic half-commuter, half-budget operation with some serious problems e.g. overcrowding. Stenning just seems to have this ability to make public transport look really good, which is what we sorely need.

Any other thoughts?

* I believe Stagecoach "beachball" was also his doing - an excellent scheme which still looks modern and makes "new Stagecoach" look like a cross between a school bus and a Fisher Price toy - any others?

The whole GBR thing is complicated as you have ScotRail and TfW already as separate brands that won't change, yet using "Rail England" or whatever is going to provoke outrage where services run by "English" operators go into Scotland and Wales (which rather ignores the same the other way round!).

Whatever is decided on a name, it needs to be applied consistently with a standard livery across every operator. Given the mess currently, maybe one livery for everything rather than different liveries for different service groups (NSE, regional, IC as was). I'm not convinced "InterCity" services warrant different branding now, as they are no longer of premium quality in terms of service provision; in many case they're just regional or commuter services (thinks XC and GWR in particular).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Old does not necessarily = bad. Or do you think TfL should change their look away from using the current font simply because it's been that way since the 1930s or whenever?

TfL did change their font - New Johnston is newer and slightly more modern-looking. Rail Alphabet looks basic and dated to me, and the new version doesn't change it enough.

Rail alphabet had the advantage of being clear, legible and was pretty much consistently applied. We badly need that on the visual mess that is the railway.

You can do all those things with a more modern looking font and a bit of colour.

The whole GBR thing is complicated as you have ScotRail and TfW already as separate brands that won't change, yet using "Rail England" or whatever is going to provoke outrage where services run by "English" operators go into Scotland and Wales (which rather ignores the same the other way round!).

I have wondered if now is the time to devolve their parts of Network Rail to Wales and Scotland too, to be honest, then Rail England wouldn't be any worse than TfW running to Manchester and Birmingham. Highways have already been devolved.

I'm not convinced "InterCity" services warrant different branding now, as they are no longer of premium quality in terms of service provision; in many case they're just regional or commuter services (thinks XC and GWR in particular).

Yes, we do seem to have followed the Dutch model of "IC" just meaning "a train that doesn't stop quite as often".

 

[HST43257]

Different NSE style local/commuter networks round the country.
IC split up similar to how it is in current TOCs but under the IC brand.
Long distance rural stuff (that shouldn’t really be there but can’t change that) under 1 brand.

 

[Gareth]

The whole GBR thing is complicated as you have ScotRail and TfW already as separate brands that won't change, yet using "Rail England" or whatever is going to provoke outrage where services run by "English" operators go into Scotland and Wales (which rather ignores the same the other way round!).

It's only as complicated as you want it to be.

GBR or a variant thereof is perfectly fine. Scotrail & TfW don't have a monopoly on services in their respective areas and intercity stuff to other parts of the country are primarily handled by DfT-specified services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's only as complicated as you want it to be.

GBR or a variant thereof is perfectly fine. Scotrail & TfW don't have a monopoly on services in their respective areas and intercity stuff to other parts of the country are primarily handled by DfT-specified services.

And other European countries cope with DB trains in France, SNCF trains in Germany etc. If you run across land borders you're going to get it.

 

[43096]

And other European countries cope with DB trains in France, SNCF trains in Germany etc. If you run across land borders you're going to get it.

You know that and I know that. But do you think Queen Nicola would accept trains branded as "Rail England" coming across the border?

 

[Gareth]

It's not going to be called Rail England and if it was, there'd be nothing "Queen Nicola" could do about it.

 

[XAM2175]

But do you think Queen Nicola would accept trains branded as "Rail England" coming across the border?

Doubt there'd be much fuss at all. The trains would be coming from and going back to England, after all.

 

[Annetts key]

And other European countries cope with DB trains in France, SNCF trains in Germany etc. If you run across land borders you're going to get it.

The solution is simple, put borders in and stop all these foreign trains! Keep the Welsh in Wales, and the Scottish in Scotland. Then the English trains can concentrate on providing English only services.

There, sorted

.
.
.

PS For the absence of doubt, I’m only joking.

 

[Irascible]

NR do infrastructure in Wales & Scotland, don't they? don't see an issue anywhere, as long as the concessions stay branded with whatever.

 

[Annetts key]

NR do infrastructure in Wales & Scotland, don't they? don't see an issue anywhere, as long as the concessions stay branded with whatever.

Apart from the bits transfered to tfw, Network Rail own and maintain all of the former BR infrastructure that is still in use by the British railway network.

 

[irish_rail]

I think there would be huge advantages of a standard livery and branding across the Britain, in saving money and presenting a unified product to the customer.
That said, I think there is virtually zero chance of any change to current TOC liveries and branding, and the whole GBR thing will only apply to tickets etc, not the actual trains. Which is an opportunity missed in my opinion

 

[Non Multi]

Warning: I've put my thinking cap on again... A very contemporaneous idea would be to rebrand this super-NR as...

"Great"

That's it.

[What!?? You say...]

So you could have, for example...
Great HQ
Great enhancements
Great teams
Great major stations
Great signalling
Great accessibility
Great endeavours
Great electrification
Great modernisation
Great timetable planning
Great consultations
Great Scotland
Great Wales
Great Western region
Great Eastern region
Great North West
Greatness at the heart of British Railways

Etc, etc.

[I know you're all going urgh, so I'll end my "Great" or not so "Great" proposal here.]

 

[LOL The Irony]

I personally like this Lion logo posted by Tim Dunn on twitter a few years ago

https://twitter.com/MrTimDunn/status/912009372292780033

 

[PTR 444]

I personally do not think there should be a standard livery across the network on the grounds that regional identity would be lost. I would rather that operations were branded similar to how they are now, but with a few changes compared with the existing TOC areas as follows:

• Avanti merged with LNWR to form a GNWR brand.
• Cross Country merged with EMT to form a brand called Midland Connect.
• WMT (operationally separate from LNWR by this point) brand to be used additionally on XC services to Nottingham and Leicester (stopper only).
• Great Northern split, with the Moorgate services becoming part of the London Overground brand and the Kings Lynn route becoming part of the LNER brand.
• Chiltern Railways renamed as Chiltern & Oxbridge, with brand used on all planned EWR services in addition to those from London Marylebone.
• Northern and TPE split into separate Northwest and Northeast brands.
• All HS2 and NPR services to be branded as Intercity Express.
• All other brands (SE, Southern, Thameslink, SWR, GWR, TfW, Merseyrail, Overground, Crossrail, GA, c2c, Scotrail) remain as they are.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chiltern Railways renamed as Chiltern & Oxbridge, with brand used on all planned EWR services in addition to those from London Marylebone.

I don't agree with all of your ideas, but that is a seriously classy TOC name and it should definitely be used.

FWIW I really quite like the idea of a unified livery involving red, white and blue* but NSE style sub-brands with their own crests/logos. I'm sure Stenning could do something excellent with that!

* I don't get why we aren't proud of our flag and don't want to reclaim it from the racists. Canada flies their flag all over their trains, and don't forget British Airways!

 

[CBlue]

• Great Northern split, with the Moorgate services becoming part of the London Overground brand and the Kings Lynn route becoming part of the LNER brand.

This idea often seems to pop its head up. I can sort of understand lumping Moorgate services in with London Overground, but LNER to Kings Lynn has been suggested many times without any compelling reason as to why, beyond "something something intercity standard"

Tongue firmly in cheek I quite like the idea of branding everything as "Late British Railways".

 

[JonathanH]

This idea often seems to pop its head up. I can sort of understand lumping Moorgate services in with London Overground, but LNER to Kings Lynn has been suggested many times without any compelling reason as to why, beyond "something something intercity standard"

Tongue firmly in cheek I quite like the idea of branding everything as "Late British Railways".

The suggestion 'Bald Rick' made was that combining Kings Lynn into LNER gave it a stream of 'commuter revenue' which was thought to give more stability over income (prior to March 2020).

 

[PTR 444]

This idea often seems to pop its head up. I can sort of understand lumping Moorgate services in with London Overground, but LNER to Kings Lynn has been suggested many times without any compelling reason as to why, beyond "something something intercity standard

Kings Cross - Kings Lynn wouldn’t necessarily need to be intercity standard. GWR and EMR happily operate a mixture of routes that would be considered intercity, commuter and regional, so LNER could be the same.

My reason behind this is so that all services from each London terminal trainshed share the same branding (bar open access), so for Kings Cross it would be LNER. Yes, people will point out that the Thameslink Cambridge stopper serves the trainshed, but it should really be combined with the Sevenoaks or Maidstone service by then.

 

[HST43257]

I’d like GN non-Moorgate stuff to join Greater Anglia, as they don’t fit in LNER imo. They are an intercity operator.

The other option for me is thameslink, but I feel their services should all be in the core.

 

[Annetts key]

What is InterCity now?
On GWR I can’t tell the difference between what was previously clear InterCity services and fast ‘regional’ express services.

Heck, the local trains that I use are often class 43 HSTs (so called Castle class).

In the past, the InterCity brand was intended to encourage long distance travellers to dump the car journey on the motorway and take the train instead. And a InterCity train was supposed to be both much quicker and much more comfortable than the rest of the old junk on steel wheels.

But it’s not as simple as that anymore.

So I ask, what is InterCity now?