Great Northern Fleet - 379s

[Mollman]

Thameslink Great Northern have gone out to tender for rolling stock, presumably in the same way that GWR recently did.
https://www.delta-esourcing.com/del...A5CB38596F97120B5F345FD0F2?noticeId=777675000

Provision of a fleet of between 21, and up to 30 x 4-car EMUs to deliver existing and/or additional Great Northern services. The EMUs must be capable of being powered by 25kV overhead lines, be capable and approved for use at speeds of up to 100mph prior to entering service, and operating in multiples, with a through gangway, of up to three units. Our current fleet is maintained in house at Hornsey Depot supported by a Technical Support and Spares Supply Agreement (“TSSSA”). It is our intention that maintenance provision continues in this manner. The fleet is expected to be available and in use/passenger operation from May 2024. The key requirements of the additional vehicles will include (but not be limited to): •compatibility with Great Northern infrastructure •full compliance with all applicable accessibility regulations (PRM NTSN) •capable of operating under AC only or AC/DC dual voltage •vehicle length of 20m •interiors suitable for outer surburban and/or mainline operation •toilets •saloon and cab air conditioning •Selective door operation (“SDO”) / driver controlled/only operation (“DCO” or “DOO”) •1/3 and 2/3 door configuration •capable of being, or have already been, fitted with ETCS level 2 in cab-signalling equipment (to comply with CCS TSI ETCS Baseline B3 Release, GSM-R Baseline 1 - SRS 3.6.0) for use on the East Coast Mainline (“ECML”) in passenger operation for August 2026 •Passenger counting system •Regenerative braking •Fitted with energy meters Interested parties should also note that partaking in this procurement process may not result in any award and suppliers are taking part at their own cost and risk. The issue of the contract notice (or any other procurement document) does not have contractual effect or create any form of contract (implied or otherwise) between GTR and any other person. GTR will not be liable, under any circumstances, for any bid costs, expenditure, work or effort incurred by a Bidder in proceeding with or participating in this procurement, including if the procurement process is terminated or amended at any stage prior to contract execution. GTR reserves the right to amend, modify and/or add further stages to or terminate the process at any stage prior to contract execution, and interested parties should note that any award is subject to approval by the Department of Transport.

 

[DanNCL]

This document doesn’t rule out 379s although as with the GWR one a while back I strongly suspect the outcome will be a renewed lease on the 387s.

 

[43074]

This document doesn’t rule out 379s although as with the GWR one a while back I strongly suspect the outcome will be a renewed lease on the 387s.

Doubt it as the tender says it's for "existing and/or additional Great Northern services" and it's between 21 and 30 units, the lower figure is nowhere near enough to cover a sensible level of service if it's just renewing existing leases.

 

[Pdf]

Looks like Great Northern have 35 387s currently. Are they all used?

 

[DanNCL]

Doubt it as the tender says it's for "existing and/or additional Great Northern services" and it's between 21 and 30 units, the lower figure is nowhere near enough to cover a sensible level of service if it's just renewing existing leases.

Not enough unless of course the DFT want to cut everything down to 4 car. That would be mad but this is the DFT we're talking about...

 

[Park47515]

Not enough unless of course the DFT want to cut everything down to 4 car. That would be mad but this is the DFT we're talking about...

The odds of that happening are pretty much zero one would have thought. If only because of Kings Lynn according to Modern Railways being very busy

 

[Suraggu]

There's plenty of 379s going...

 

[Fuzzytop]

Looks like Great Northern have 35 387s currently. Are they all used?

Ex-GWR 387172, 387173 and 387174 are now at Hornsey, and I'm sure I've seen some authoritative sources on Twitter state these are receiving software mods for GN use. This would increase the number of 387s with GN to 39, although one of those is excused for modifications. I'd therefore say it feels unlikely this tender is to entirely replace the current 387 fleet.

If this is for additional capacity, it's a pity the 365s aren't still around! I realise that there are a few requirements in this tender (SDO, gangways) that the 365s would not meet. But, given those units reverted to government ownership, the cost would surely be considerably lower than opening up a new commercial lease arrangement.

 

[Snow1964]

I wonder if this is one of those, playing bidders off against each other to get good deal

379s, spare 350s, even a rehash of the 458s if SWR abandon them again.

Not really any spare 387s to throw into the mix.

I suppose if Anglia thought it had a surplus of 720s, could offer to sub-lease those out (wrong length, but could variation be accepted if price was attracive)

So quite a lot of options in theory.

 

[Starmill]

I wonder if this is one of those, playing bidders off against each other to get good deal

379s, spare 350s, even a rehash of the 458s if SWR abandon them again.

Not really any spare 387s to throw into the mix.

I suppose if Anglia thought it had a surplus of 720s, could offer to sub-lease those out.

So quite a lot of options in theory.

SWR are in contract now for a conversion programme for their class 458 sets, to return them to 100 mile/hour capability and reform them. It will be some years before they're back in passenger service like that though.

 

[Milo T.K]

I'm probably leaning towards 379s being used esp since it's electrostars and GN already having them would probably be easy getting those in

 

[JonathanH]

Ex-GWR 387172, 387173 and 387174 are now at Hornsey, and I'm sure I've seen some authoritative sources on Twitter state these are receiving software mods for GN use.

It was suggested that the purpose of leasing these was not to increase the operational fleet but to cover some of the units currently under maintenance or a modification programme. Whether they remain on lease for the long term will be something to wait and see.

The Modern Railways article about Southern indicates that GTR see the 387s as effectively the fleet they can balance between the South and North of London operations depending on where there is the most need. It certainly doesn't imply any future increase in the size of the fleets.

 

[whoosh]

20m vehicle length and through gangways between units eliminates class 720s.

 

[43096]

20m vehicle length and through gangways between units eliminates class 720s.

Nothing to stop a non-compliant bid being submitted, particularly as it would reduce cost elsewhere for the ultimate paymaster.

 

[WarrenTManager]

How about 350/2s for an outside punt

 

[St. Paddy]

How about 350/2s for an outside punt

Nothing wrong with them but I can’t see the dft standing the cost of training @250 Drivers

 

[Snow1964]

Nothing wrong with them but I can’t see the dft standing the cost of training @250 Drivers

What's the cost of training (as in type conversion course, not training from scratch) about 250 drivers.

If it is less than the savings on leasing a different type of unit (and I don't know if it will be), then why wouldn't DfT sanction it.

Current form seems to suggest DfT want overall cost savings, so if a 350/2 option works out cheaper overall, then surely it is viable option.

 

[Wyrleybart]

How about 350/2s for an outside punt

350/2s or 379s, either would need fitting with ETCS if they were going to use Kings Cross and thr Great Northern. I am guessing that is why 379s are currently vegetating in Anglia and Worksop. High cost units which need yet more spending on them.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

I just wonder if Great Northern will get more rolling stock like advertised and if it will be a rolling stock that is off-lease?

 

[jagardner1984]

Surely for it to be in service a year from now it has to be a pre-existing off lease unit with minimal modification and training required ?

 

[Minstral25]

350/2s or 379s, either would need fitting with ETCS if they were going to use Kings Cross and thr Great Northern. I am guessing that is why 379s are currently vegetating in Anglia and Worksop. High cost units which need yet more spending on them.

Or they are a bunch of spare units to be used whilst allowing for the 387's to be set up and prepared for ETCS and then will be given back. It is a 4 year contract only from 2024 to 2028

 

[Bonemaster]

Nothing to stop a non-compliant bid being submitted, particularly as it would reduce cost elsewhere for the ultimate paymaster.

OJEU procurement legislation means they would have to readvertise the tender.

The timescales effectively rule out new build, and the specifics only leave a small number of available options.

 

[JN114]

Exactly as per the previous GWR Tender, this is just due process.

Porterbrook will offer continuation of the existing 387 fleet; and that will - by far - be easier, cheaper and most suiting of GTR’s invitation to tender.

Absolutely nothing to see here.

 

[43074]

Exactly as per the previous GWR Tender, this is just due process.

Porterbrook will offer continuation of the existing 387 fleet; and that will - by far - be easier, cheaper and most suiting of GTR’s invitation to tender.

Absolutely nothing to see here.

You definitely sure about that? As the numbers don't add up for a start - the tender specifies between 21 and 30 4-car units, there are 37 387s for 31 diagrams so how do you propose GTR cover the work of 31 diagrams with 21 units if it's just "due process".

 

[JN114]

You definitely sure about that? As the numbers don't add up for a start - the tender specifies between 21 and 30 4-car units, there are 37 387s for 31 diagrams so how do you propose GTR cover the work of 31 diagrams with 21 units if it's just "due process".

The UK Rail Industry is actively and aggressively being cut at by the DfT and treasury. This is the first big indicator that there likely won’t be 31 diagrams of work in future. Besides the invitation to tender specifies “21 to 30 units”.

GWR have just been through the same, where the tender said 30 units despite the fleet then being 33 (with 31 diagrams).

Low and behold we now have 27 diagrams and 30 units.

 

[43074]

The UK Rail Industry is actively and aggressively being cut at by the DfT and treasury. This is the first big indicator that there likely won’t be 31 diagrams of work in future. Besides the invitation to tender specifies “21 to 30 units”.

GWR have just been through the same, where the tender said 30 units despite the fleet then being 33 (with 31 diagrams).

Low and behold we now have 27 diagrams and 30 units.

It also says the trains are for existing or additional Great Northern services though so with respect I think this is wrong. There certainly won't be a reduction in units as there aren't enough at present in any case.

 

[whoosh]

Or they are a bunch of spare units to be used whilst allowing for the 387's to be set up and prepared for ETCS and then will be given back. It is a 4 year contract only from 2024 to 2028

I don't think it would take as long as four years to modify a large amount of units - like 21.
Four years to do 3 or 4 at a time, yes.

21 units to cover 21 being done at once (or within a year), maybe.

But to cover 21 over four years, no.


Replacing a contingent of 387s to be sent south of the river for whatever purpose, AND cover a small number of other 387s (3 or 4 units max) to have their ETCS fitment on a rolling programme. Possibly.

Nothing to stop a non-compliant bid being submitted, particularly as it would reduce cost elsewhere for the ultimate paymaster.

Well, that would be an unconventional bid, but if it's possible to submit one, that could be interesting...

How about 350/2s for an outside punt

Again, quite an interesting possibility. I'm not sure what variant of 350s has recently been fitted with DOO cameras and in-cab monitors off the top of my head. But if it's the 350/2s then they would comply.


At the moment Hitchin, Peterborough, Cambridge, King's Lynn, and King's Cross sign 387s, which is about 310 drivers as a ballpark figure.
Hitchin probably have the least 387 work (or used to before this May), so would be about 250 drivers excluding them.

Conversion course to 379s may possibly be shortened down to a printed brief and couple of hours payment to read it. 350s would probably be a 2 to 4 days - one/two classroom and one/two driving at a guess.
A more in depth than paper brief (a longer course of similar length to 350s) for 720s as well I would think.

 

[St. Paddy]

At the moment Hitchin, Peterborough, Cambridge, King's Lynn, and King's Cross sign 387s, which is about 310 drivers as a ballpark figure.
Hitchin probably have the least 387 work (or used to before this May), so would be about 250 drivers excluding them

You’re forgetting 40 or so Drivers at Hornsey that sign them. Hitchin is 60% 387 work from the May timetable change.
Also, would they be able to spare Drivers for training on anything other than Electrostars with all the ETCS training coming up?

 

[JN114]

It also says the trains are for existing or additional Great Northern services though so with respect I think this is wrong. There certainly won't be a reduction in units as there aren't enough at present in any case.

You can run additional services; and cut/short-form existing ones to end up with fewer units required…

Again, 31/33 wasn’t enough for us at GWR either; yet here we are after a remarkably similar invitation to tender on 27/30; with shorter formations and more overcrowding.

There was plenty of similar arguments on the forum back then how it must mean additional units for more Cardiffs and the 379s were coming to GWR. Unsurprisingly they didn’t; and it was exactly what was being said all along, a re-tender for the existing fleet as the National Rail Contracts disrupt the existing leasing agreements; so they need to be re-done.

The only interesting thing about it is where in that 21-30 scale allowed in the tender the needle falls. It’ll be 21-30 of the existing 387s GN already operate, and the axe of cuts will take care of the “that isn’t enough” problem.

 

[JonathanH]

The only interesting thing about it is where in that 21-30 scale allowed in the tender the needle falls. It’ll be 21-30 of the existing 387s GN already operate, and the axe of cuts will take care of the “that isn’t enough” problem.

Indeed, it might be noted that slack in the 700 and 717 fleet could in theory be used to reduce the need for 387s, and also that there is a possibility that the 6 c2c units could be outside this tender, given they have more recently been taken on.

That way, it is somewhat easier to see how 21 - 30 units reconciles to the current 387101-387129 fleet.