Great Western Railway penalty fare route increases

[infobleep]

I haven't seen it mentioned on here but from 23rd May all of the Great Western Railway network will be covered by penalty fares.

However there will be buy in board lines and some non penalty fare stations. I know Gatwick Airport to Guildford is currently not a penalty fare line but Guildford to Reading is. Of course both have some stations which will be non penalty fare stations going forward.

What other non penalty fare lines are there?

I take it a penalty fare is issued on a buy on board line when one cannot buy on board.

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[MarlowDonkey]

What other non penalty fare lines are there?

Marlow to Bourne End/Maidenhead is non penalty fare as there isn't a ticket machine at Marlow. Ticket inspection between Maidenhead and Marlow is a rarity in personal experience, but less so in the opposite direction.

Marlow is never staffed, so doesn't have a ticket machine. The other three stations, Bourne End, Cookham, Furze Platt are sometimes staffed and have machines.

 

[FenMan]

Marlow to Bourne End/Maidenhead is non penalty fare as there isn't a ticket machine at Marlow. Ticket inspection between Maidenhead and Marlow is a rarity in personal experience, but less so in the opposite direction.

Marlow is never staffed, so doesn't have a ticket machine. The other three stations, Bourne End, Cookham, Furze Platt are sometimes staffed and have machines.

Sandhurst on the North Downs Line doesn't have a ticket office or a TVM, so, by definition, cannot be a Penalty Fare station.

 

[talldave]

That's a bit confusing. "Penalty fares across the entire network" immediately followed by an "if" statement that infers that not all stations are penalty fare stations. Are those stations not part of the network then?

 

[LexyBoy]

What!!

I didn't see any reference to the consultation that GWR must surely have gone through. I've had a quick look on the DfT site with no joy but I wouldn't really know where to look.

The original FGW PF scheme had three zones in order to comply with the conditions of allowing the creation of a PF scheme, which state that they should not be applied to long distance routes. How can GWR now trample over this and apply PFs to intercity services?

 

[swt_passenger]

I take it a penalty fare is issued on a buy on board line when one cannot buy on board.

That doesn't make sense. You must mean 'not issued'...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What!!

I didn't see any reference to the consultation that GWR must surely have gone through.

The original penalty fare rules only required the TOC to apply to the SRA. The SRA was then to consult with transport committees Presume now LTW and PF) and PTEs.

A public consultation would be a waste of time as long as the TOC stuck to the laid down rules..

 

[LexyBoy]

The original penalty fare rules only required the TOC to apply to the SRA. The SRA was then to consult with transport committees Presume now LTW and PF) and PTEs.

Thanks - I wasn't expecting public consultation but I'm a bit surprised that this is the first I'd heard of it.

Inclusion of long-distance services, especially where many stations have barriers to entry, is a significant change and not appropriate for a PF scheme in my opinion:

4 How we will decide whether to approve a penalty fares scheme

Is a penalty fares scheme appropriate?
4.1 When considering a penalty fares scheme, we will first consider whether penalty fares are appropriate, given the type of train service provided and the other ways in which that operator could protect its revenue. A penalty fares scheme is most suited to urban or suburban train services where most stations have ticket facilities, and where busy trains and short intervals between stations make it impossible to check every passenger’s ticket between every stop. We may question the need for a penalty fares scheme to cover long-distance services, where a conductor is able to check every passenger, or rural services operated as ‘paytrains’, where most stations are unstaffed and it is normal practice to buy tickets on board the train. Also, automatic ticket gates are being used at more stations to control entry to the platforms. A penalty fares scheme might not be necessary if all, or almost all, of the stations concerned had these gates.

Of course the key is the "may question" - they may equally say "yeah whatevs lol".

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks - I wasn't expecting public consultation but I'm a bit surprised that this is the first I'd heard of it.

Wonder if it was mentioned in the franchise consultation (or anything similar) though?

 

[infobleep]

That doesn't make sense. You must mean 'not issued'...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



The original penalty fare rules only required the TOC to apply to the SRA. The SRA was then to consult with transport committees Presume now LTW and PF) and PTEs.

A public consultation would be a waste of time as long as the TOC stuck to the laid down rules..

No I actually I'd mean issued. If everywhere is a penalty fare then there must be ways in which penalty fares can be issued on buy on board lines. That's assuming I'm reading the poster to correctly.

I may have worded the sentence confusingly though as I didn't mean if opportunity to pay didn't exist but if the person had no money to pay at all.

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[Bletchleyite]

So, are buy on board routes actual Paytrain routes, i.e. you may choose to buy on board if you wish, regardless of availability of ticketing equipment at the origin?

If not, I think the naming is rather unfortunate and will cause confusion and quite possibly unnecessary prosecutions, or at least attempts at them.

Are you expected to miss a connection at the main station to purchase if the guard did not come through?

 

[maniacmartin]

From SRA Penalty Fars Rules

3.2 Any train operator who wants to introduce a penalty fares
scheme must do the following.
a Send a notice, at least three months before the date on
which it is proposed to begin charging penalty fares, to:
i the SRA;
ii the Rail Passengers Committee for any area in which
the proposed scheme will apply; and
iii the relevant Passenger Transport Executive, if an
operator wants a train service which is sponsored by a
Passenger Transport Executive, or which passes
5
through an area covered by a Passenger Transport
Executive, to become a penalty fares train.
The notice must explain the reasons for wanting to
introduce a penalty fares scheme, and must give the date on
which the operator proposes to start charging penalty fares

Given this, it is surprising that this is the first we heard of the scheme.

It doesn't make sense to me to operate a Penalty Fares scheme over an area that contains some non-PF stations with no ticket-purchasing opportunities. Surely any fare dodger will just claim to have originated from one of those stations?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably once in a while they will have staff at those stations giving out Permits to Travel? That said, deliberate lying about origin isn't really a PF matter...

Just shove some TVMs in with a PERTIS capability if the required ticket is not available, and make the whole thing buy before you board.

I suspect they have got round the above because there is already a scheme in existence, it is just being extended.

 

[swt_passenger]

I may have worded the sentence confusingly though as I didn't mean if opportunity to pay didn't exist but if the person had no money to pay at all.

Ah got you. That's a good question, you are basically saying does the inability to pay at all override the lack of a ticket machine at the starting station, which is therefore not a penalty fare station?

 

[infobleep]

Ah got you. That's a good question, you are basically saying does the inability to pay at all override the lack of a ticket machine at the starting station, which is therefore not a penalty fare station?

Correct. On the map they are marked as buy on board lines and not penalty fare stations. Perhaps they could have had a buy on board line colour with the station symbol dots still being non penalty fare station symbol dots.

That's assuming the stations on board on board routes are the same as non penalty fare stations.
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[TEW]

Sandhurst on the North Downs Line doesn't have a ticket office or a TVM, so, by definition, cannot be a Penalty Fare station.

Yet it is currently a Penalty Fare station. At least the new scheme recognises the fact that it has no ticket issuing facilities any more.

 

[infobleep]

Yet it is currently a Penalty Fare station. At least the new scheme recognises the fact that it has no ticket issuing facilities any more.

What happened to its ticket issuing facilities?

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[TEW]

It did have a ticket machine but it has been removed, due to vandalism I assume.

 

[221129]

This has been announced at FGW stations for at least 2 weeks now.

 

[Starmill]

Presumably once in a while they will have staff at those stations giving out Permits to Travel? That said, deliberate lying about origin isn't really a PF matter...

What about someone who claims to have travelled further than they have

This has been announced at FGW stations for at least 2 weeks now.

In a way that disambiguates more than that poster?

Why do we need to distinguish between buy on board stations and non-penalty fare stations? And what is the distinction?

Why are stations Carmarthen to Lanelli inclusive within the Penalty Fare Scheme, but not Penalty Fare stations? Of the stations Whitland to Pembroke Dock inclusive several do have TVMs. What does their status as buy-on-board route mean? Must you use the TVM at Llanelli when the ticket office is closed there, but use of the TVM at Pembroke Dock is optional? In neither case could you be issued with a Penalty Fare.

Someone has a lot of explaining to do. Guys, please, this is not difficult to get right.

 

[infobleep]

This has been announced at FGW stations for at least 2 weeks now.

Do you verbally announced. I haven't heard anything at Guildford station and they do announce Great Western Railway engineering works affecting the station.

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[221129]

Do you verbally announced. I haven't heard anything at Guildford station and they do announce Great Western Railway engineering works affecting the station.

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It's an Auto announcement. You won't hear it at Guildford as it is not A FGW station.

 

[Starmill]

Do you verbally announced. I haven't heard anything at Guildford station and they do announce Great Western Railway engineering works affecting the station.

I should imagine they mean stations where GWR are the SFO - which wouldn't include Guildford.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about someone who claims to have travelled further than they have

I think these days if doing that deliberately I would make it clear where I actually boarded then specify the "starting short" ticket I wanted and why.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Interesting that Oldfield Park and Keynsham are included as penalty fare stations despite neither having adequate ticketing facilities (basically all you get is one member of staff with an advantix machine for a couple of hours in the morning peak who doesn't have anywhere near the ability to actually sell tickets to everyone and then no ticketing facilities at all for the rest of the day and on weekends).

 

[Keith Jarrett]

Interesting that Oldfield Park and Keynsham are included as penalty fare stations despite neither having adequate ticketing facilities (basically all you get is one member of staff with an advantix machine for a couple of hours in the morning peak who doesn't have anywhere near the ability to actually sell tickets to everyone and then no ticketing facilities at all for the rest of the day and on weekends).

The original documentation for the Bristol penalty fares scheme showed that two ticket machines were to be installed at each of Keynsham and Oldfield Park. Many years later, this has still not happened and simply makes a mockery of the PF concept!

And non collection of fares seemed to be common place several years back due to, amongst other things, a combination of lazy on train staff, the use of non-corridored DMUs and sheer volume of people wanting tickets at all times of day.

 

[richw]

The announcement at stations doesn't have the small print or map to tell us of the grammar error in the announcement saying the entire network, when it clearly isn't the entire network.
It says from the xx may 2016, penalty fares will apply across our entire network. Ensure you buy your ticket before boarding.
In recent weeks I've also encountered an increase in RPIs, so can only assume a recruitment drive occurred in time for their new penalty fares scheme

 

[infobleep]

The announcement at stations doesn't have the small print or map to tell us of the grammar error in the announcement saying the entire network, when it clearly isn't the entire network.
It says from the xx may 2016, penalty fares will apply across our entire network. Ensure you buy your ticket before boarding.
In recent weeks I've also encountered an increase in RPIs, so can only assume a recruitment drive occurred in time for their new penalty fares scheme

Where must surely be a way they can PF people across the entire network, even if it's fairly remote due to no ticket issuing facilities existing.

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[swt_passenger]

Where must surely be a way they can PF people across the entire network, even if it's fairly remote due to no ticket issuing facilities existing.

Well for a start just because there is no ticket issuing facility at some sleepy hollow or other doesn't mean a PF cannot be issued if travelling TO that same station from somewhere else with all the normal facilities...

In extremis why can't a route effectively be a Penalty Fare route in only one direction?

 

[greaterwest]

What happened to its ticket issuing facilities?

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The TVM at Sandhurst was removed by the vandals themselves and found in a field, a burnt out shell. At least that's what the hearsay is.

That being said, the machine was in a silly location anyway (on a perch under the bridge).

the only stations East of Guildford that have TVMs on that line are Shalford and Dorking Deepdene (not counting the GTR gatelined stations, Reigate, Redhill & Gatwick) and if there is provision for a more frequent service to the other stations (Chilworth, Gomshall, Dorking West & Betchworth) then they will also need TVMs otherwise the whole point is missed.

 

[LexyBoy]

otherwise the whole point is missed.

Unless they're just hoping to rake in £300 fines from people travelling on IC services between London and the West / Wales who get the wrong train with an Advance? Would certainly rake in the notes even after you've employed an RPI per train.