YourMum666
Member
Would the GW electrification scheme have made more sense if it was planned to head down to exeter through the bristol line and the B&H line
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GW electrification to exeter
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Western Sunset
Established Member
Don't think so. If they never managed to get to Oxford and Bristol, I can't see them getting much further west.
It would be good if it was to be electrified, but in terms of trains per hour the west of England are lower frequency than elsewhere. West of Newbury on the B&H is rarely more than 4 trains an hour, and is down to one or two between Castle Cary and Taunton
778
Member
Didcot - Oxford should really have been electrified before Reading - Newbury.
The obvious thing would be to do Brum-Plymouth, but Taunton-Padd via Bristol is about 20 mins longer at the moment I think & I don't think electrification is going to change that, plus I'm not sure you can even fit more services round that way - so you'd be in the awkward position of Cardiff-Plymouth and XC being electric, and still running Taunton to Newbury on diesel. I mean, that is a win for everything because it'd speed up Padd-Plymouth a bit through South Devon, but I bet the BCR is not great ( I wonder if it's more than Newbury-Plymouth though ).
They haven't even got to Temple Meads either.
They haven't even got to Temple Meads either.
Indeed. If you could get to at least Westbury, the 80x units would be able to use the wires for further, Mendip stone could gain improved performance over the hills and local service to Bedwyn could switch to EMU. Ideally the wires would extend further to Frome and the quarry branches so the same electric locos could be used throughout, otherwise a bi-mode haulage solution would be required or a loco change at Westbury. Any extension of wiring along their routes is beneficial to bi-mode or battery-equipped passenger stock as it decreases diesel usage and increases fuel or battery range.
Junction remodelling and resignalling at both ends of Temple Meads are finished though, and equipment and new structures have been provided fully compatible with hopefully soon-to-be commenced wiring.
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How much use would Filton electrification get? Until the locals, regionals, and XC have bi-modes it wouldn't see that many trains an hour using it and I doubt it would lead to GWR changing any IETs to pure electric.
It needs doing, just questioning its place in the queue.
Oxford is awaiting a station rebuild, then it will be electrified.
The GWR Bristol Temple Meads trains head through Bath, which still isn't electrified.
Getting Severn Beach and later Temple Meads to Taunton would get a good amount electric.
How many stone trains a day are there? and if you're looking at bimode haulage for them, can't it go to Newbury on diesel? that seems like something that shouldn't wait for wires.
NE-SW expresses, Bristol-southwards locals, Wales-Birmingham freights for wiring the Brum-Taunton bit ( presuming going either way went to Plymouth ). Wonder if the Bromsgrove wiring could support doing all the lines.
Bimode locos pulling 5,000 tons of stone sounds challenging! Probably need 4 of them or something... You would think changing locos at Newbury would be a possibility though
I'd support that of course, but the bigger performance benefits of electric operation are available west of Newbury where the long gradients are encountered.
Falcon1200
Established Member
The priority should be completing electrification as originally envisaged, ie to Oxford, Swansea, and Bristol via both routes. Beyond Bristol, possibly to Weston-Super-Mare, but I don't see the traffic justifying it beyond there, or Newbury.
I assume you mean Westbury as the wires already extend to just beyond Newbury? The whole Bath - Trowbridge, Chippenham - Trowbridge network could do with wires to provide better diversionary routes for both freight and passenger, but it might not be among the most compelling early schemes. That bimode locos can run off wire would allow freights to get to Chippenham from Westbury anyway and the quieter and slower route might mean easier pathing until the wires are met again around Chippenham.
I agree that completing those original goals really should be the immediate priority, but B&H could be an interesting add-on after that as many bi-mode trains run there already on fast and semi-fast expresses to Devon and Cornwall and the potential for regular London-Bedwyn services using EMUs.
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Coming from a current Exeter resident, Oxford and Bristol Via Box must take priority. Was in the original project scope and work had already started before being put 'on hold'. Think back to all the work done at Bath and Keynsham what feels like many years ago to make the line 25Kv ready
irish_rail
On Moderation
Another vote for Oxford and Bristol first. After all,if Exeter were fully wired up, we'd probably end up getting 387s on some Padd trains!!!
Or bank them to Newbury & pilot back again, which would probably save a bit of hassle operationally.
I'd also like the original scheme finished first. There's 400kV from Plymouth to almost Bristol if there's any desire to do pilot schemes for partial wiring, though.
Sly Old Fox
Member
Allowing Bristol - Cardiff trains to go electric would be pretty useful, as well as a lot of ECS moves to and from Stoke Gifford depot. Remember some of the locals are bi mode now.
Snow1964
Established Member
Yes lots of work was done, there are even some masts erected east of Chippenham.
Personally I would question if Exeter is a sensible end point in South Westerly direction. The big gradients are further west and line remains busy as far as Paignton trains branch off.
Personally I wouldn't go beyond Weston-super-Mare, or beyond the Frome area (but would include the quarry branches). Having done Bristol via Box, would do the lines to Filton and Weston-Super-Mare, and possibly other Metrowest branches. Then proceed from Bathampton to Warminster and Frome (including short Melksham line).
The aging 158s, 165s, 166s could gradually be replaced by electric trains on some services at this stage. Then fill Westbury-Newbury and Yate-Gloucester.
Ultimately I would add Severn Tunnel Junction-Gloucester and onto Bromsgrove but that only makes sense if Cross Country gets bi-modes and get decent number of electric freight locos.
Newbury-Westbury-Exeter along with rest of original GWEP, Taunton-Bristol and Bathampton-Westbury will happen one day, it’s the only option unless net zero is binned. No chance under current government though. Newbury- Westbury- Bathampton would bring the greatest benefits after reaching Bristol TM and Oxford.
That would involve splitting most of the regional trains - would Cardiff accept getting a Bristol shuttle and no more trains through beyond that?
Accepting the significant difference in miles I don't really see that Oxford and Bristol routes add all that much compared to electrifying the huge aggregate trains using diesel all the way from the quarries into outer London, presumably speeding them up and keeping them out of the way better too.
Trainbike46
Established Member
Electrifying to Oxford allows for an end to the split of the locals in didcot, so improves the railway product in the area
As stated in the message you quoted, some of the locals on Cardiff-Bristol-beyond are already bimodes. The big advantage of Bristol via Bath is for the london trains, and it would be madness to not electrify Bristol TM - Bristol Parkway if electrifying the route via Bath.
Though I fully agree the routes into the southwest should also be electrified, and the heavy stone trains should be high up the priority list.
So that would give something like this for a rolling southwest/GWR electrification
1. Bristol TM (via Bath and via Bristol Parkway)
2. Oxford (when Oxford remodelling is finished, so possible after some of the later ones)
3. Newbury-Westbury-Taunton-Exeter, including branches to the quarries
4. Bristol-Taunton, including weston-super-mare and other branches around Bristol (Severn Beach, Bath/Chippenham to Westbury)
5. Working onwards along the mainline to Penzance
6. Possibly branches around Exeter?
That is why we need a large fleet of BEMU/'tri-mode' Stadler FLIRTs (or similar*) for local/regional services in the south-west (all operators - TfW, GWR SWR), including the Cardiff - Portsmouth axis (for which 3rd rail pick up would be useful too). Then a longer-term strategy of piecemeal gap-filling electrification can steadily reduce any remaining unwired diesel mileage, leading to eventual removal of the diesel generator sets from those trains' power pods.
* other train manufacturers are available but I hope the FLIRTs' level boarding feature is not sacrificed in specifications.
Trainbike46
Established Member
Level boarding should be specified as a required feature for ALL new rolling stock, whether for northern, gwr or elsewhere
A good one for partial electrification once the mainline wiring reaches St Davids, given suitable new trains. Say Crediton to Topsham and somewhere en route to Axminster, so BEMUs should be able to cope. On the main line, the estuary and sea wall sections beyond Exminster pose their own unique challenges.
Agree strongly!
Minstral25
Established Member
Surely electrification to Exeter/Plymouth and Briston will not be continuous, but will be in sections to allow BEMU's to be used in the non-electrified bits.
ac6000cw
Established Member
The upcoming (with GBRf) class 99 six-axle high-power bi-modes would be absolutely fine - slower than a 59 on diesel due to a less powerful engine, but under OHLE with 6000 kW (8000 hp) available, higher tractive effort and modern AC-traction drives they should romp away.
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Ashley Hill
Established Member
Newbury to Westbury should seriously be considered. Reading crews are now learning the road to Westbury possibly allowing the sensible extension of the Bedwyn services. So 387s to Westbury and extending the use of electric on IETs. I can see Exeter eventually receiving OHLE but not this decade.
Could the solid contact overhead rail (as used in Severn Tunnel and Chipping Sodbury Tunnels) be used along the sea wall?
Could the solid contact overhead rail (as used in Severn Tunnel and Chipping Sodbury Tunnels) be used along the sea wall?
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Trainbike46
Established Member
Why would you think that?
Assuming you meant Bristol, all the structure have already been cleared, so no reason to not do the whole way.
And for freights discontinous electrification is unlikely to be massively helpful. In my view this is very much a case of just get on with it, an attitude that does seem to exist in Scotland
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