Harwich International to Kings Lynn in the evening

[YellowBrick]

I'm looking to travel from Harwich International to Kings Lynn (Rail and sail ticket) on Wednesday evening. NR has the below itinerary:

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Train 20:45 Harwich International [HPQ] -> Manningtree [MNG] 20:57 12m
Greater Anglia service from Harwich International to London Liverpool Street

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Train 21:29 Manningtree [MNG] -> Norwich [NRW] 22:21 52m
Greater Anglia service from London Liverpool Street to Norwich show calling points

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Train 22:40 Norwich [NRW] -> Ely [ELY] 23:37 57m
Greater Anglia service from Norwich to Cambridge show calling points

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Replacement Bus 00:06 Ely [ELY] -> Downham Market [DOW] 00:46 40m

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Replacement Bus 00:51 Downham Market [DOW] -> Kings Lynn [KLN] 01:34 43m

================


I'm worried about the two rail replacement buses at midnight and the 5 minute connection between them at that well known transit hub: Downham Market.

a) What's the liklihood both the buses are on time?
b) What happens if/when I miss my connection and get stranded in Downham Market? Noting in particular I won't be carrying a mobile phone.

===
Relatedly: How on earth does it take nearly 5hrs and as many vehicles to go just 140km!

 

[scragend]

a) What's the liklihood both the buses are on time?

Probably more likely at that time of night than in peak hours, because there should be much less traffic.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm worried about the two rail replacement buses at midnight and the 5 minute connection between them at that well known transit hub: Downham Market.

a) What's the liklihood both the buses are on time?
b) What happens if/when I miss my connection and get stranded in Downham Market? Noting in particular I won't be carrying a mobile phone.

It looks like one bus runs from Ely to Downham Market and another from Downham Market to Kings Lynn to avoid the need for too much late night empty mileage. You would imagine that the rail company has specified that one waits for the other.

 

[30907]

Off-topic, but Kings Lynn isn't a station served by GA trains - is there an arrangement that Rail and Sail is valid there?

Another explanation maybe the peculiar drivers' hours regulations that require the bus to terminate and restart as a nominally different service, when in fact the vehicle and driver work through. In any case, as JonathanH has said, the likelihood of your being stranded is nil.

That said, I would suggest catching the 2033 and heading for Cambridge, where you will have a long-ish wait for the Thameslink to Ely with which the buses are designed to connect.
The advantages are
(1) Cambridge is probably a better place to wait than Ely at night.
(2) you are in the hands of TL sooner
(3) if TL services are disrupted you might be lucky and catch the delayed last through train - and if not, there are more likely to be staff on hand.

 

[Kite159]

Kings Lynn isn't a station served by GA trains

Other than the 0618 Kings Lynn to London Liverpool Street & 1907 London Liverpool Street to Kings Lynn

 

[30907]

Other than the 0618 Kings Lynn to London Liverpool Street & 1907 London Liverpool Street to Kings Lynn

Oops! So it is covered on the same basis as Peterborough?

 

[LowLevel]

Rail and Sail to the Netherlands is an interesting on. Various parts of the FAQs say any Greater Anglia station, others say Greater Anglia services.

Personally as a ticket inspector on trains that run through GA stations without being GA trains I've always accepted Rail and Sail tickets but I'm not sure they're strictly valid. For my own TOC 50% of the relevant inspectors will also be familiar with the RailSail tickets to Holyhead or similar so probably wouldn't think to question the GA version - I doubt you'll get into much hassle.

 

[Benjwri]

Rail and Sail to the Netherlands is an interesting on. Various parts of the FAQs say any Greater Anglia station, others say Greater Anglia services.

In theory it should be only Greater Anglia trains, the Rail and Sail FAQs say:

Stations such as Peterborough, which are not operated by Greater Anglia but are served by Greater Anglia trains, are included, but only Greater Anglia trains may be used. All main line services on the London to Harwich route are operated by Greater Anglia.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Are we saying that the OP shouldn't be travelling as far as Kings Lynn just on the return portion of their 'Rail & Sail' ticket, unless they travel with Greater Anglia (only) to Ely, and have a separate ticket for the final bit from Ely to Kings Lynn, which won't be a Greater Anglia service?

 

[JBuchananGB]

The normal journey time for the route is 3 hours. Due to the use of RRBs on Wednesday evening it will be 5 hours. There is a suggestion to travel via Cambridge but that just involves sitting at Ely for 53 minutes. (23.13 to 00.06) I think in these circumstances I would be trying to cut a deal with a Norwich based taxi firm at my own expense from Norwich to Kings Lynn, journey time about 1 hour, getting to Kings Lynn closer to 23.30 than 01.30. I guess that option may not be open to the OP.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Are we saying that the OP shouldn't be travelling as far as Kings Lynn just on the return portion of their 'Rail & Sail' ticket, unless they travel with Greater Anglia (only) to Ely, and have a separate ticket for the final bit from Ely to Kings Lynn, which won't be a Greater Anglia service?

Looking on BRFares, none of the stations beyond Ely towards Kings Lynn are among the list of stations that Rail and Sail tickets are available from, despite what it says on the relevant page on the Greater Anglia site.

The exclusion appears to be somewhat arbitrary, however, given the West Anglia stations that are now managed and primarily/exclusively served by London Overground are still included, as is Emerson Park on the Romford - Upminster Line. Though that's likely to just be because the relevant cluster hasn't been updated to remove them.

 

[Benjwri]

Are we saying that the OP shouldn't be travelling as far as Kings Lynn just on the return portion of their 'Rail & Sail' ticket, unless they travel with Greater Anglia (only) to Ely, and have a separate ticket for the final bit from Ely to Kings Lynn, which won't be a Greater Anglia service?

Yea this is correct, a sail and rail ticket is not valid to Kings Lynn unless they would to take one of the earlier mentioned Greater Anglia services. If they were travelling on a rail service it would be fare evasion, although I’m not sure how it would be handled.

However as the OP is planning on a rail replacement bus anyways I would say they try showing the sail and rail ticket and see what is said. The chances are as mentioned above it’ll be allowed, and worst case they have to buy a ticket for Ely to Kings Lynn, as the legislation does not allow for prosecution or penalty fares when travelling on a RRB

 

[30907]

There is a suggestion to travel via Cambridge but that just involves sitting at Ely for 53 minutes. (23.13 to 00.06).

I suggested waiting (a similar length of time) at Cambridge.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Has the (temporary?) issue whereby foot passengers were required to disembark the ferry at Harwich International on a shuttle bus, been resolved yet? Might affect which first train the OP can catch.

 

[YellowBrick]

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll take a look at my options again tomorrow morning.
I suppose I should be unsurprised to see that there are new and exciting forms of arbitrary ticketing complexity and anxiety to deal with; reminds me I'm back in the UK.

 

[30907]

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll take a look at my options again tomorrow morning.
I suppose I should be unsurprised to see that there are new and exciting forms of arbitrary ticketing complexity and anxiety to deal with; reminds me I'm back in the UK.

By "arbitrary" you mean that a product available to/from Any Greater Anglia station isn't valid elsewhere, I presume? That has been the case, unfortunately, ever since the product was introduced, a considerable number of years ago.

 

[ashkeba]

By "arbitrary" you mean that a product available to/from Any Greater Anglia station isn't valid elsewhere, I presume? That has been the case, unfortunately, ever since the product was introduced, a considerable number of years ago.

But it used to be possible to use it to any Greater Anglia served station, not only on GA services. This change seems surprising and disappointing now the fen line only has one GA train each way that doesn't connect to the boat trains.

 

[30907]

But it used to be possible to use it to any Greater Anglia served station, not only on GA services. This change seems surprising and disappointing now the fen line only has one GA train each way that doesn't connect to the boat trains.

In that case, my apologies, as my memory from past years was that Lynn wasn't listed.

 

[ashkeba]

In that case, my apologies, as my memory from past years was that Lynn wasn't listed.

I am not sure about Lynn but I think I used it from Littleport. Also, restriction to Anglia services would restrict routes and services to/ from stations towards Peterborough.

 

[bspahh]

But it used to be possible to use it to any Greater Anglia served station, not only on GA services. This change seems surprising and disappointing now the fen line only has one GA train each way that doesn't connect to the boat trains.

https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tickets-fares/discounts/rail-and-sail-holland says

You'll get to travel from any Greater Anglia station to Harwich International Port.
[...]
Tickets are available for travel to and from Harwich International and any station served by Greater Anglia trains.
Stations such as Peterborough, which are not operated by Greater Anglia but are served by Greater Anglia trains, are included, but only Greater Anglia trains may be used.

My last Rail Sail ticket says:

This confirmation is also used as your train ticket in England and is valid to and from all stations served by the Greater Anglia railway company. London, Cambridge and Colchester are just a few places you can travel to. At every Greater Anglia train station you can check in and out at one of the manned gates.

That sounds to me like you can use any train to get to a Greater Anglia station, or any Greater Anglia train to other stations. I used a Cross Country train from Cambridge to Ely.

 

[YellowBrick]

By "arbitrary" you mean that a product available to/from Any Greater Anglia station isn't valid elsewhere, I presume? That has been the case, unfortunately, ever since the product was introduced, a considerable number of years ago.

Sorry, I should have been clearer: I mean "arbitrary" in that Kings Lynn somehow isn't in Anglia for these purposes (it definitely is geographically and conventionally).

---
The "ticket" itself is in Dutch (just an A4 print), but it does say "HARWICH - ELK GREATER ANGLIA STATION", which I presume means GA stations, not services. Although, expecting random members of the public to know who operates which station is like them to know the model of the train they're on.

---
Journey wise so far so good - got an earlier train from Manningtree and am now enjoying the free wifi in the warmth on the train at Norwich (departs in 40+ mins). Much as European trains have many advantages over UK trains (these seem really small inside after 3 months of european trains), the Europeans (German, Austria, Swiss, Greek, Italy, Dutch) lack in wifi access. Even Manningtree had wifi!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@YellowBrick. What time did you eventually arrive into Kings Lynn? And what connections were needed / made after arriving at Harwich International off the ferry?

 

[YellowBrick]

@YellowBrick. What time did you eventually arrive into Kings Lynn? And what connections were needed / made after arriving at Harwich International off the ferry?

At Ely there was a ~40 minute wait for the replacement bus. Turns out it's one bus that went all the way to Kings Lynn (not sure why NR said it would require a change in Downham). There were only two people on it. Arrival time was indeed about 01:30.

One problem: The toilet on the bus was locked (90 minute journey) and the driver wouldn't open it! As were the toilets at Ely (closed at 10). There was a staff member at Ely, but I couldn't find him to ask to use the staff toilets. They really should have toilet facilities on rail replacement buses.

 

[bspahh]

One problem: The toilet on the bus was locked (90 minute journey) and the driver wouldn't open it! As were the toilets at Ely (closed at 10). There was a staff member at Ely, but I couldn't find him to ask to use the staff toilets. They really should have toilet facilities on rail replacement buses.

The Tesco next to Ely station shuts at midnight Monday to Saturday, and the toilets are usually open there

 

[Class800]

the driver wouldn't open it!

Did you make it clear what the alternative would be! Possibly accidentally wetting the bus

 

[YellowBrick]

Did you make it clear what the alternative would be! Possibly accidentally wetting the bus

Hehe, definitely a possibility if I were incontinent, but luckily I'm not. Definitely seems like an accessibility issue for just that reason.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Harwich International for the continent, Ely -> Kings Lynn rail replacement bus for the incontinent?

 

[Class800]

Harwich International for the continent, Ely -> Kings Lynn rail replacement bus for the incontinent?

Good one