Has anyone had any success with a second stage appeal?

[Avocado]

I was issued a penalty fare on October 16th, on a journey between Didcot and Oxford. I had lost the ticket on the train (after using it to get through the barriers in Didcot) but because I still had a reciept I was told that it would be easy to appeal the penalty.

I tried to appeal immediately, but it wasn't uploaded on the system yet. The person at the barrier had told me that I would recieve a letter informing me of the penalty fare. I assumed that this would confirm that the incident had been loged in to the system. This letter never arrived, and I'm not sure if that was an admin mistake, a mistake on her part or if I just remembered the conversation wrongly (it was a verbal conversation and I have no evidence).

I was on the way to the airport at the time and left the country for over 3 weeks. No letter arrived until the penalty notice telling me that I had not paid the penalty fare.

I appealed and my appeal was rejected on the basis that I had taken too long to respond. They do not dispute that I paid the fare or claim that it was fair that I was issued with the penalty fare in the first place.

Has anyone successfully appealed in this situation? Or does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks

 

[furlong]

Well, it might be argued that you didn't make sufficient effort to appeal (i.e. you didn't really care strongly enough about it), so you need to look into whether or not it was issued in compliance with the Regulations, such that a court would uphold it.

You are both entitled to appeal immediately and entitled to send that appeal "by electronic transmission" to "the address of the relevant Appeal Panel". So what written information were you given to tell you how to do that? Was an email address provided in some way? Was a postal address also provided? Did you consider posting an appeal?

5 (2) Where a collector charges a penalty fare to a person under paragraph (1), the collector must provide that person with the following information in writing at the time the penalty fare is
charged—
...
(g) a statement that the person has the right to appeal against the penalty fare and an explanation of how the person can appeal;
...
16.—(1) A person (“the appellant”) charged a penalty fare under regulation 5(1) may appeal against that penalty fare to the relevant Appeal Panel—
(a) before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the day after the day on which the penalty fare is charged;
...
1. An appeal must be made in writing and may be sent to the address of the relevant Appeal Panel or, as the case may be, the relevant Final Appeal Panel by—
(a) sending it by prepaid post;
(b) sending it by electronic transmission;
(c) delivering it to or otherwise leaving it at that address; or
(d) by any other means specifically authorised by the relevant Appeal Panel or, as the case may be, the relevant Final Appeal Panel.

 

[Avocado]

Thanks for your response.

I did try to appeal immediately (via the website) but I guess the case hadn't been logged electronically yet because the website didn't recognise the notice number. I should really have taken a screenshot at that point, because I don't have any record of it now.

I was given a paper penalty fare notice with the website and postal address on, but was also (I think) verbally told that I'd recieve a letter through the post confirming this, which didn't happen.

I still have proof that I paid the fare, so do you think it's worth appealing?

 

[kristiang85]

That seems a bit bizarre that they go to the effort of giving you a penalty fare despite saying you will get it overturned on appeal? Surely that is the railway giving themselves extra effort/costs when the member of staff could simply have told you 'be more careful next time, have a nice day', given that she seems to have believed you had bought the ticket?

 

[furlong]

"via the website" but not immediately would probably have to fall under 1(d)"by any other means specifically authorised by the relevant Appeal Panel" so it's important that the information you were given was accurate - e.g. if method 1(d) had restricted availability during the appeal period, that should have been mentioned in the information that told you about that option.

 

[Avocado]

That seems a bit bizarre that they go to the effort of giving you a penalty fare despite saying you will get it overturned on appeal? Surely that is the railway giving themselves extra effort/costs when the member of staff could simply have told you 'be more careful next time, have a nice day', given that she seems to have believed you had bought the ticket?

I think it was a case of once they'd stopped me, they didn't want to go back on it? Or maybe that she didn't actually believe that it would be overturned, but just wanted to get rid of me?

I agree that it does seem really odd.

"via the website" but not immediately would probably have to fall under 1(d)"by any other means specifically authorised by the relevant Appeal Panel" so it's important that the information you were given was accurate - e.g. if method 1(d) had restricted availability during the appeal period, that should have been mentioned in the information that told you about that option.

She definitely didn't mention that I would have to wait until the notice was logged when we spoke, but again I don't have any proof since it was a verbal conversation

 

[furlong]

Look again at the WRITTEN information you were given at the time. Do you still have it?

 

[gray1404]

The problem here is that the rules state you have 21 days from the date following the issuence of the penalty fare. The rules all that an appeal can be submitted online. The rules do not state that you have to wait for a certain length of time before you can appeal, following issuance of the notice.

You have attempted to appeal following receipt of the notice and before the deadline. The railway company, or their agent, has not allowed you that right. They have therefore not complied with the regulations. I would therefore argue that the PF is therefore not enforable due to this error and the railway company should drop the matter.

It is not the passengers fault the online appeal cannot be lodged straight away following receipt of the PF notice. Do you have any proof, such as a screen shot, you were unable to lodge your appeal online?

 

[island]

That seems a bit bizarre that they go to the effort of giving you a penalty fare despite saying you will get it overturned on appeal? Surely that is the railway giving themselves extra effort/costs when the member of staff could simply have told you 'be more careful next time, have a nice day', given that she seems to have believed you had bought the ticket?

It is a pretty common occurrence in order for the authorised collector to avoid conflict.