Have doors ever been opened on the wrong side...

[NightatLaira]

I'm not a driver or conductor and so don't know the intricacies of train door operation; but:

I understand that generally door operation is controlled by a guard, especially on 158s and the suchlike - in these trains it would pretty hard to open the wrong side when it's all being done manually. But when drivers are responsible for door operation (e.g. on the tube or on London commuter services without guards) has the wrong side of the train ever been accidentally opened?

What are the safety mechanisms in place to stop such an occurrence.

What about on 91 / 390 / HST sets - they're generally guard controlled - have mistakes ever been made?

 

[driver9000]

The simplest answer is yes it will have happened on the odd occasion but it's very rare that it does happen and rarer still for anyone to fall from the train when it does. Mistakes happen from time to time unfortunately. There is nothing to physically stop the doors being released on the wrong side except for the human eye of the Guard or Driver taking in the surroundings and engaging with their brain before the buttons are pressed. LU trains have a system called Correct side door enabling which should prevent the doors being opened on the wrong side or when away from stations although I'm not sure if all LU stock has this fitted.

 

[flymo]

I'm sure I've seen a few signs here and there on platforms to tell the train crew which side to open the doors on but can't for the life of me remember where now. Wonder if it is in response to someone having opened the doors on the wrong side there before?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Certainly with DOO, the doors have been unlocked on the wrong side before, I know that is fact. But as for doors actually opening, I can't say for definate (most people wouldn't expect the doors on the wrong side to be open).

 

[notadriver]

Guards have been known to open doors on the wrong side too. On most modern EMUs the driver opens and the guard closes whereas on a DMU the guard does both. I don't think there are a lot of instances of wrongside door opening happening under DOO otherwise official government reports would deem it unsafe!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Guards have been known to open doors on the wrong side too. On most modern EMUs the driver opens and the guard closes whereas on a DMU the guard does both. I don't think there are a lot of instances of wrongside door opening happening under DOO otherwise official government reports would deem it unsafe!

That's not entirely true. There are only a few MU's where the driver opens and the guard closes - certainly not all modern EMUs. There is no differentiation in door operations between DMU's and EMU's.

 

[Minilad]

Driver unlocks the doors on XC voyagers and it's happened a couple of times. Not heard of it happening for awhile though as it usually gets covered in safety briefs when it does

 

[DarloRich]

I'm sure I've seen a few signs here and there on platforms to tell the train crew which side to open the doors on but can't for the life of me remember where now. Wonder if it is in response to someone having opened the doors on the wrong side there before?

There is one at the end of platform 6 at MKC. It says something like OPEN RIGHT HAND SIDE DOORS

 

[SWT_USER]

Slightly off topic but why is it not possible to open doors on both sides where the platform allows? The two that spring to mind are Ascot and Greenford, the latter particularly annoying when there is a w/bound Central Line train waiting!

 

[Cherry_Picker]

It's entirely possible to open the doors on both sides (physically possible at least) but its just a case of not being allowed to. I think if you have a query about a specific location it would be interesting to get in touch with the TOC in question and see what they have to say on the matter.

I'd echo what has been said earlier too, doors do get opened on the wrong side from time to time. It's extremely rare in my experience, but I'd agree it is probably more common (but still extremely rare) in DOO areas. I have never heard of a passenger opening the doors or falling out, probably because they are all on the side of the train the platform is on. It might be an issue on a train where people are packed in like sardines and somebody is pressed up against the "wrong" door I suppose.
The most likely cause for a mistake would be that old chestnut where train crew are on auto pilot and not focussing 100% on what is happening. Perhaps you have been stopping at the same platform at a station every day for weeks/months/years and all of a sudden you get a platform alteration sees the platform being on the other side, muscle memory takes over and the doors are unlocked on the wrong side.

There are signs up in specific locations too. The place where I have seen them most often is in a bay platform where the side doors are supposed to be open has changed. It's not uncommon for the side used in a bay platform to be changed for operational reasons if the bay is single tracked with a platform surface on either side. Sticking big sign up to remind train crew who have been opening doors on a certain side there for 20 years that it has changed is a perfectly logical thing to do it. 99.99% of the time it will never be needed, but its still worth putting up.

 

[pendolino]

Yes, it's a significant risk, one which many drivers manage in different ways. I would say the biggest risk is where DOO monitors are on the opposite side to the platform.

A lot of my colleagues use a magnetic bulldog clip to hold their diagram. Sticking the bulldog clip on the desk so the diagram covers the 'wrong' door buttons helps prevent putting up an wrong-side door release as you physically can't press the buttons with a couple of sheets of folded A4 in the way. That does of course depend on whether the correct door buttons are left uncovered, which often means moving the clip from one side to the other between stations. This then allows the driver to concentrate on braking and bringing the train to a stand at the correct stop mark.

 

[First class]

I don't see why both sets of doors couldn't be opened at say Wigan Wallgate Bay platform or the bay in Inverness where there is a platform edge at both sets of doors.

However, to the original question, I would say it is extremely rare that this occurs, and should be almost impossible to occur if the guard does his duties correctly, i.e.

opens local door
steps on to platform to check all fine and safe
releases doors
starts despatch procedure
right away to driver

The only person who should be able to fall from the train is the guard. (but as described some DOO or driver release operations are different).

 

[jopsuk]

Where the monitors are on the "wrong side", are there warning stickers on the monitors themselves?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Where the monitors are on the "wrong side", are there warning stickers on the monitors themselves?

Varies by individual location.

 

[swt_passenger]

Slightly off topic but why is it not possible to open doors on both sides where the platform allows? The two that spring to mind are Ascot and Greenford, the latter particularly annoying when there is a w/bound Central Line train waiting!

Some units have interlocks that prevent both sides being opened together - unless overidden. If both sides can be opened, dwell times will certainly be longer,as both sides of the train will have to be checked - time consuming for a guard, and requiring duplicate DOO equipment on the platform or train, whether mirrors, cameras and monitors, or train fitted equipment.

In any two sided bay, the signal position and any off indicators may well govern which side of the train can be opened if the services are guard dispatched - AIUI this is why one of Derby's bay platforms has (or had) the doors opened on the side without a platform canopy - the signals are on hte other side.

On LU, a system known as Correct Side Door Enable (CSDE) is fitted to most trains. One of the many strike votes over the last few years was because the existing Victoria Line stock wasn't being retro fitted with CSDE with only 2 years remaining in service... :roll:

 

[185]

First Transpennine Express were criticised in 2007 after the doors on 170303 were regularly releasing on the wrong side. Despite this occurring four times on the same unit, the company still proceeded with hauling staff off trains and taking them off operational duties. They never apologised, and the staff were returned to duty.

They had tried to suggest it was "human factors", "distraction", "method of work" etc, usual Safety Department rubbish jargon to cover up the fact they simply didn't know what had caused it. They failed to notice that each time, the situation only occured shortly after the train was detatched from other units at one end only - suggesting the fault was related to the coupler.

I had a door open in traffic in 2005 which one company who tried to blame on me, suggesting I had deliberately interfered with a emergency door release - even though I was sat 70 metres away when it happened. It was later established that the butterfly valve was infact loose and spinning around. As if anyone of sound mind would open a door at 80mph?!

Guards do open doors occasionally on the wrong side, but that should not happen if the guard correctly steps onto the platform first, then presses the passenger door release button whilst stood there. (which isn't so easy if you are short)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I don't see why both sets of doors couldn't be opened at say Wigan Wallgate Bay platform or the bay in Inverness where there is a platform edge at both sets of doors....

I don't know for those specific locations/trains, but in my experience of DOO, whilst doors can be opened individually, they are closed with the same button. A guard can't check both sides of the train at the same time and any DOO mirrors/screens may not show both sides either.

 

[Crossover]

Scarborough platforms 1 and 2 also have platform faces at both sides, with direction of the one side being used indicated.

Thinking about it, the signal could well be the reason for this (although I would have to check next time I am there)

I did also wonder if it was something to do with if the doors are open on both sides and its a particularly windy day, it could turn the coaches into wind tunnels, especially with the 185's which have no vestibule.

The double work for the driver (in DOO) or guard also makes sense too as to why it wouldn't be done.

I think the only case where both sides are opened are on the DLR at Tower Gateway, but I can't remember if here the one side opens, then closes, before the other side opens for boarding passengers, despite the fact I've been there and been on it!

 

[ChrisCooper]

DLR also opens on both sides at Canary Wharf. Both side opening is also used on the Central at Stratford, at least Westbound, with one side being for DLR and the other for NR.

The reason London Underground has had CSDE for some time wheras the mainline railways never have is that the risk is far greater on LU due to the driver not only releasing but opening the doors. On busy trains passengers will often be pressed up against the offside doors trying to make room for those who are getting off, so opening them could lead to people falling out of the train. On the mainline though the doors are only released, so it would also need passengers to mistakenly open the doors and then step out. The risk is very small. Some SDO systems do have correct side systems inplace. The GPS based system on the Electrostars does, hence why at times doors can be slow to open at places like Victoria as the system struggles to connect to the GPS to find which side the platform is.

The CSDE on LU is a fairly simple system with a loop on the platform face that covers the area where the front of the train can stop and the doors safely open, and a detector on the train that picks up when it is alongside the loop. I though all trains had it when OPO fitted. Perhaps the Victoria line did not being the first OPO line, plus operators will normally switch sides to be on the side where the platform is at stations (each side has duplicate door controls, automatic start control and emergency brake).

 

[pendolino]

Some SDO systems do have correct side systems inplace. The GPS based system on the Electrostars does, hence why at times doors can be slow to open at places like Victoria as the system struggles to connect to the GPS to find which side the platform is.

Southern or Southeastern? I can only speak for the Southern 377s (rather than Southeastern 375s) but it is still possible to put up a wrong side door release at Vic.

 

[notadriver]

SDO does not prevent wrong side opening.

On the tube you frequently have platforms on either side. Mainline Trains are usually driven on the left and platforms are usually on the left as well. On the East London Line for example there are only 6 stations where you open on the right hand side.

 

[pendolino]

SDO does not prevent wrong side opening.

Nor does it stop the driver opening doors of coaches not on the platform if he runs through or stops short for that matter.

 

[scotsman]

I don't see why both sets of doors couldn't be opened at say Wigan Wallgate Bay platform or the bay in Inverness where there is a platform edge at both sets of doors.

The platform surface at Inverness varies by about a foot, so boarding has to take place from the other side - which is a pain for the Conductors who have to stick their heads out of the rear cab to see the OFF indicator

 

[O L Leigh]

Yes, it's a significant risk, one which many drivers manage in different ways. I would say the biggest risk is where DOO monitors are on the opposite side to the platform.

Absolutely. The risk is that you automatically give a release on the side where you're looking, so if the monitors are on the left and the platform on the right it wouldn't be too hard to release the wrong side. Ware station is like this, so I know to cover the buttons for the left side doors to prevent me accidentally pressing them.

It certainly is possible to release and open the doors down both sides of the train, as this is a prep item for our units. However, it isn't particularly safe in passenger operation because pressing "door close" closes ALL doors simultaneously, and it isn't possible to see down both sides of the train at the same time.

O L Leigh

 

[jopsuk]

going a little off track, but using cameras/monitors (albeit a rather large bank) it should be possible to see both sides of the train at once- though the number of moniotrs required for both sides of a 12 car train would be bewildering.

 

[mumrar]

First Transpennine Express were criticised in 2007 after the doors on 170303 were regularly releasing on the wrong side. Despite this occurring four times on the same unit, the company still proceeded with hauling staff off trains and taking them off operational duties. They never apologised, and the staff were returned to duty.

They had tried to suggest it was "human factors", "distraction", "method of work" etc, usual Safety Department rubbish jargon to cover up the fact they simply didn't know what had caused it.

Interesting, with the introduction of Class 170s to Central Trains the exact same problem, and blame of guards, was occurring. After enormous pressure, and with evidence from the OTMR that a lot of wrong side releases showed both sides released at the same time, detailed investigations were undertaken.

It was found that from time to time voltage in the door release circuit would spuriously flick to the wrong side door control panel as well.

So action was taken to fit door key switches on both sides of every cab, and also a capacitor circuit which means the door release buttons must be depressed for two seconds to gain release was added. This did nothing to stop the spurious voltage passover, but as the passover was a flicker, rather than two seconds solid, it solved the problem.

Once again, no member of traincrew threatened with disciplinary action received an apology.

 

[LE Greys]

I'm sure I've seen a few signs here and there on platforms to tell the train crew which side to open the doors on but can't for the life of me remember where now. Wonder if it is in response to someone having opened the doors on the wrong side there before?

Platform 4, Finsbury Park would be one possibility, but there because it faces onto the same line as Platform 5 and is never used. In slam-door days, people happily opened the doors on both sides.

Inside, some corridor coaches used to have:
>>>>>>>>CORRIDOR THIS WAY>>>>>>>>
above the seats to prevent passengers from blithely stepping out of the train when leaving the compartment.

 

[OxtedL]

Sounds like train companies know how to treat their staff...

Petts Wood has monitors on the wrong side of one platform, along with a notice to that effect, IIRC.

Norwood Junction has a fun arrangement for up trains as well.

 

[jon0844]

Where the monitors are on the "wrong side", are there warning stickers on the monitors themselves?

At stations on FCC GN (and on the Northern City Line) there is a sign saying 'Open doors on other side' underneath the monitors.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Platform 4, Finsbury Park would be one possibility, but there because it faces onto the same line as Platform 5 and is never used. In slam-door days, people happily opened the doors on both sides.

The 1828 Finsbury Park to Cambridge yesterday showed up online as arriving at platform 4, although when it arrived the driver opened the doors for the other side (platform 5) as normal.

The platform screen showed platform 5 though. The only thing that actually did change was a last minute platform alteration where the 1833 FPK to WGC was moved to platform 3.

I wonder what happened there? I doubt the driver would have been aware of it, so I can't believe any train would stop there and take people from platform 4 even if was supposed to for some bizarre reason (perhaps platforms 5/6 taken out of use for some reason, as may actually happen while there's a lot of building work going on).

 

[western Champion]

There is one at the end of platform 6 at MKC. It says something like OPEN RIGHT HAND SIDE DOORS

That sign was put there when platform 6 opened because previously drivers of northbound Pendolinos stopping at MKC had always given a left hand door release, down fast and down slow, and believe it or not old habits die hard hence the sign was put there to remind drivers.