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Heathrow ATP

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crablab

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With both the 345s and 387s using ETCS (European Train Control System) in the Heathrow tunnels, does anyone know when/if the ATP (Automatic Train Protection) will be ripped out of said tunnels?

I assume there is no need/reason to keep it in there and I recall somewhere it was mentioned that it interfered with ETCS?
 
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Philip Phlopp

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With both the 345s and 387s using ETCS in the Heathrow tunnels, does anyone know when/if the ATP will be ripped out?

I assume there is no need/reason to keep it in there and I recall somewhere it was mentioned that it interfered with ETCS?

Not fitted, nothing to be ripped out.
 

crablab

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Are you sure...?


If there is no ATP in the tunnels and the 332s don't have TPWS...what is there?
 

Philip Phlopp

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Are you sure...?


If there is no ATP in the tunnels and the 332s don't have TPWS...what is there?

Ah, thought you were talking about ATP on the units, not the tunnels.

332s have ATP but no TPWS/AWS. 345 and 387 fleets both fitted with TPWS/AWS but not ATP.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Indeed...I have clarified my question ;)

In which case I'll need to defer to my S&T colleagues - don't know if they can do any component recovery until Paddington to Reading switches to ETCS and perhaps not until the whole route is converted.
 

crablab

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Ah, fair enough!

I guess it may well be deactivated in the tunnels, since it's not being used and can only go wrong?

Where is Heathrow signalling controlled from? That must be an interesting interface between ATP and ETCS...
 

MarkyT

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With both the 345s and 387s using ETCS in the Heathrow tunnels, does anyone know when/if the ATP will be ripped out of said tunnels?

I assume there is no need/reason to keep it in there and I recall somewhere it was mentioned that it interfered with ETCS?

The GW ATP equipment can only be removed from the Heathrow tunnels once class 332 units have stopped running on Hex entirely. They must have found ways to allow ATP and ETCS to run together temporarily. That caused reliability problems when tried originally.
 

T-Karmel

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Heathrow is currently controlled from Thames Valley.
As MarkyT mentioned, ATP will be in use until the very last 332 and also 360 will be withdrawn.
 

alxndr

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I can't think of any technical reason why ATP couldn't be removed as soon as it is no longer required on that portion of the route.

The majority of its removal would be a case of replacing a handful of links and pulling fuses (and subsequent recovery of the assets). If there were any ATP fitted trains still running down there you might have to reprogram the information in the last remaining ATP to prevent a train looking for a beacon that is no longer, but if that's not going to happen it might not even be beneficial to do that.
 

crablab

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Heathrow is currently controlled from Thames Valley.

I'd be interested to understand how ETCS has been implemented there, and interfaced with ATP if anyone has any details? :)

I can't think of any technical reason why ATP couldn't be removed as soon as it is no longer required on that portion of the route.

Agreed. Asset recovery might actually be quite useful, as I understand ATP equipment is becoming rather difficult to get hold of...

Wasn't there a Chiltern route which is downgrading as a result of issues getting spares for ATP?
 

CyrusWuff

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Wasn't there a Chiltern route which is downgrading as a result of issues getting spares for ATP?
Unfortunately Chiltern and Great Western ATP are two completely different systems. Chiltern uses a variant of the German LZB system (developed by Alcatel, and now Thales), which eventually became refined as SELCAB (also used on the Docklands Light Railway). Great Western ATP is based on the Belgian TBL (Transmission balise-locomotive) system developed by a company called ACEC (now part of Alstom).

Traintesting.com has more info: http://www.traintesting.com/ATP.htm
 

alxndr

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Agreed. Asset recovery might actually be quite useful, as I understand ATP equipment is becoming rather difficult to get hold of...

It's becoming rare, but it's not too much of an issue as the encoders are fairly resilient (tempting fate here I'm sure) and the loops are just standard cable. The beacons could well come in useful though.
Any test equipment which breaks is a big issue however, as they're not being manufactured any more, and repairs carry a hefty price tag.
 

JN114

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The interference issues eventually ended up being predominantly software issues on the 345s - or at least wholly mitigated through software changes on the 345s.

The big problem removing ATP from the tunnels will be possessions to get it out. But once the 387s have taken over from the 332s and the 360s have been fully withdrawn the ATP equipment can be mothballed pending recovery.

Also as a point of order, the 332s have AWS - it was mandatory long, long before they were built. It’s just TPWS they’re not fitted with despite it being mandatory for passenger trains since 2003 (mitigation is ATP is a superior system and they operate wholly on fitted routes).

I'd be interested to understand how ETCS has been implemented there, and interfaced with ATP if anyone has any details? :)

It’s a straight overlay on the existing colour light signalling - the interlocking at TVSC generates/transmits a GSM-R movement authority equivalent to and simultaneously to clearing the signal on the ground. So in practice ETCS despite being implemented as level 2, is just behaving as an enhanced ATP system. The same is planned to be the case with the further roll out of ETCS between Slough and Paddington over the next few months/year.

There is no interface with ATP per se, as ATP is essentially just dumb-slaved off the equipment at the trackside; rather than being driven by the signalling centre - to the extent TSRs and ESRs are implemented by inserting extra chips/plugs into receptacles in the trackside ATP equipment cases.
 
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crablab

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It’s a straight overlay on the existing colour light signalling - the interlocking at TVSC generates/transmits a GSM-R movement authority equivalent to and simultaneously to clearing the signal on the ground.

Thanks - that's really interesting.

Who is the vendor of the ETCS at TVSC? I assume Hitachi/Ansaldo?

The same is planned to be the case with the further roll out of ETCS between Slough and Paddington over the next few months/year.

I assume the ETCS is installed in a way that allows fairly easy upgrade to include more lines as required?

Are there any published dates for this?
 

hwl

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Who is the vendor of the ETCS at TVSC? I assume Hitachi/Ansaldo?
Alstom as per rest of GWML resignalling equipment. ETCS is an open standard so you aren't locked into a single supplier, never assume with ETCS.
 

crablab

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Maybe we need a separate thread for GWML resignalling...

It's odd that this isn't really talked about very much. Just Googling brings up very few recent results
 

JN114

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Maybe we need a separate thread for GWML resignalling...

It's odd that this isn't really talked about very much. Just Googling brings up very few recent results

Unlike the ECML scheme where they’ve made a big song and dance, it’s not being resignalled. They’re just putting straight overlay L2 ETCS in - that’s probably why there isn’t much chatter about it.
 

_toommm_

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How are the 332s allowed to run on the mainline without AWS or TPWS? Surely it can't be a case of incompatibility because the GWR HSTs had APT and AWS/TPWS.
 

sharpinf

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How are the 332s allowed to run on the mainline without AWS or TPWS? Surely it can't be a case of incompatibility because the GWR HSTs had APT and AWS/TPWS.

JN114 covered that point earlier - one of the (multiple) reasons the 332s can't easily get a new home once leaving the Heathrow Expresses.

Also as a point of order, the 332s have AWS - it was mandatory long, long before they were built. It’s just TPWS they’re not fitted with despite it being mandatory for passenger trains since 2003 (mitigation is ATP is a superior system and they operate wholly on fitted routes).
 

_toommm_

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JN114 covered that point earlier - one of the (multiple) reasons the 332s can't easily get a new home once leaving the Heathrow Expresses.

Oops, must have missed that one; but thank you for highlighting it :) seems like a more logical explanation.
 

kevin_roche

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I'd be interested to understand how ETCS has been implemented there, and interfaced with ATP if anyone has any details?

I saw this video presentation recently which includes details of how the 345s switch from TPWS to ECTS when or vice versa on the line at Airport Junction. (At 16:44 in the video.)


Interesting to note that because they thought it might take longer to switch and obtain a good GSM-R signal they actually switch to ECTS Level 1 before switching to ETCS Level 2.
 

K.o.R

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A more general question: Is the (very?-)long-term ambition to replace all of these systems (ATP, AWS, TPWS, probably a few more) with ETCS eventually? It surprised me that ATP wasn't actually a standard on all the main lines.
 

Domh245

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It surprised me that ATP wasn't actually a standard on all the main lines.

As hinted at elsewhere previously, 'targeted' TPWS can deliver something like 70% of the benefits of full ATP installation at a significantly lower cost. Full ATP installations on all main lines would have been very expensive
 

edwin_m

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A more general question: Is the (very?-)long-term ambition to replace all of these systems (ATP, AWS, TPWS, probably a few more) with ETCS eventually? It surprised me that ATP wasn't actually a standard on all the main lines.
This is Network Rail's intention, but it is likely to take several decades, and ETCS itself might have been superseded by something better (but probably downwards compatible) in the meantime.
 

Tim M

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As hinted at elsewhere previously, 'targeted' TPWS can deliver something like 70% of the benefits of full ATP installation at a significantly lower cost. Full ATP installations on all main lines would have been very expensive
ETCS should in time become the most cost effective solution. Part of the cost is equipping trains and locos, if as seems to be the case that new vehicles are either fitted or come ready to fit, that cost can be taken out of the equation. Where lines are being resignalled significant savings may be made by not installing signals.

As an extreme example, a gantry can cost upwards of £250k, plus groundwork’s, installation etc. just to hold up a couple of LED modules. There would be a significant reduction in lineside apparatus cases, each needing bespoke design, groundwork’s, installation, testing and maintenance etc. etc. These would only being required for point machine interfaces. Axle Counter equipment requires little lineside infrastructure compared to track circuits. Power and cabling costs would also reduce significantly.

Reduction in maintenance and fault finding along with enhanced equipment monitoring needs to be factored as part of whole life costs. Increased availability and therefore overall reliability (a Network Rail mantra) will result, leading to fewer train delays.
 

Meerkat

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ETCS should in time become the most cost effective solution. Part of the cost is equipping trains and locos, if as seems to be the case that new vehicles are either fitted or come ready to fit, that cost can be taken out of the equation. Where lines are being resignalled significant savings may be made by not installing signals.

As an extreme example, a gantry can cost upwards of £250k, plus groundwork’s, installation etc. just to hold up a couple of LED modules. There would be a significant reduction in lineside apparatus cases, each needing bespoke design, groundwork’s, installation, testing and maintenance etc. etc. These would only being required for point machine interfaces. Axle Counter equipment requires little lineside infrastructure compared to track circuits. Power and cabling costs would also reduce significantly.

Reduction in maintenance and fault finding along with enhanced equipment monitoring needs to be factored as part of whole life costs. Increased availability and therefore overall reliability (a Network Rail mantra) will result, leading to fewer train delays.
Is building a few gantries Which last for decades really cheaper than building all the balises, plus all the extra equipment every single New train has to have?
And is fixed line side equipment really less reliable than hundreds of sets of equipment bouncing around on trains and relying on radio links?
 

edwin_m

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Is building a few gantries Which last for decades really cheaper than building all the balises, plus all the extra equipment every single New train has to have?
And is fixed line side equipment really less reliable than hundreds of sets of equipment bouncing around on trains and relying on radio links?
At a guess a balise costs a few hundred quid and I believe for Level 2 they only convey fixed information so there is no connection to the signaling system (information on the state of the line ahead goes by radio instead). There are no doubt still lots of checks and tests required when programming them, but actually installing on site would take only a few minutes compared to many hours for a gantry, or many days if the foundations and other works are included.

Equipment at the lineside has to cope with a wide range of climatic conditions as well as vandalism, rats etc. On the train it's in a similar environment to the passengers, being kept within a narrow range of temperature and humidity with little vibration. Bogie-mounted equipment is another matter, but that is needed for any system requiring interaction of train and trackside equipment so there's no good reason a properly-designed antenna should be any less reliable than an AWS/TPWS receiver. On-train equipment is also easier to access for maintenance.
 

Tim M

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Is building a few gantries Which last for decades really cheaper than building all the balises, plus all the extra equipment every single New train has to have?
And is fixed line side equipment really less reliable than hundreds of sets of equipment bouncing around on trains and relying on radio links?
I think you mean ‘really more expensive’. The Balise are all the same except for simple ID programming that would be done in a workshop before fitting to the track. They have no power and are thus more reliable, also if the train misses one Balise that’s ok provided it doesn’t miss the next one, improving system availability. Adding the on-board equipment as standard reduces unit cost due to the volumes involved, also there is in-built redundancy of the electronics with (possibly, but I’m not involved these days being retired) a two out of three channel configuration, much like SSI. Along with other on train systems faults will be recorded as they happen and increasingly reported direct to a maintenance depot for rectification later.

Reliability of lineside equipment may not be the critical issue. Consider a track circuit fault, let’s say through a tunnel. Is the location of the fault obvious, can technicians get to it quickly, have they gone to the right end, has the equipment failed or is there a track fault such as a failed insulated rail joint. Such failures present logistical issues associated with what are known as ‘single point failures’. All the time the fault exists trains are at a stand or heavily delayed, particularly if a set of points is locked by the track circuit being ‘occupied’.

Note that axle counters systems can be designed with redundancy to overcome that ‘single point failure’ problem, and remote monitoring is available.

It all comes back to RAMS, Reliability, Availability, Maintainability and Safety. All these elements of design can be calculated (having been involved in such work, I can confirm it can be complex). With careful attention to RAMS there is no reason why on-board equipment would be less available than any other equipment.

Note that I have experience of both on train and fixed signalling systems going back over thirty years. Designing a system with automatically driven trains, (including in depots), in tunnel throughout, unattended (i.e. no staff on board) on a close headway mass transit railway in Singapore tends to focus the mind on RAMS where availability levels of 99.9% are required.
 
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