Heathrow Connect cancellations

[Groningen]

Like to know whether there is a clear pricedifference between Heathrow Connect and changing in Hayes & Harlington from train to bus.

 

[jon0844]

of course they were! Wouldn't want to miss an opportunity to fleece the punters.

I wonder how many people ever get to the machines (which are hardly ever used) as staff placed at strategic places - including the entrance to HEX/HC - usually grab you before you're even able to see this thing called Heathrow Connect.

I've seen queues in the corridor because people, unsurprisingly, might think that this is where you get tickets - not knowing there are machines further on. And they do a pretty good job of upselling first class tickets too. They seem to do it much like any fast food restaurant, by suggesting that's what you asked for.

Can't blame them for it of course. Their station, their control. No different to people at Gatwick 'helping' tourists by guiding them towards Gatwick Express tickets. At least in the case of HEX, cost aside, it is at least lot quicker and a more pleasant experience than HC or the tube.

 

[berneyarms]

Like to know whether there is a clear pricedifference between Heathrow Connect and changing in Hayes & Harlington from train to bus.

Yes - there is.

Use the TfL fare finder for the individual train and bus fares and check the Heathrow Connect website for the direct rail fare.

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/fares/single-fare-finder?intcmp=1660

https://www.heathrowconnect.com/tickets

 

[Taunton]

Not quite correct. The 360s were out on Sunday running between Padd and Hayes.

As the issue was apparently "shortage of drivers", I wonder whatever roster savings can be made by still turning out the trains, which are only driven by Heathrow Express crew, but terminating them just one station short of their main destination.

Regarding the uniformed ticket touts that are all around, it's notable that Heathrow Express never have any difficulty having enough (or more than enough) of THEM on duty at all times. They also have them in the corridor inside the terminal, leaving Customs and before you even get out into the public area of the terminal, who prey very successfully on those arriving passengers with a limited command of English.

 

[matt_world2004]

Like to know whether there is a clear pricedifference between Heathrow Connect and changing in Hayes & Harlington from train to bus.

The bus to heathrow from hayes and harlington is £1.50 the train is £6.00 it is quite a bit cheaper to use an oyster card to hayes and then get off and use an oyster om the 140,

Centrecomm the tfl bus alerts system is listing the fault with the heathrow connects as track issues.

 

[rebmcr]

Regarding the uniformed ticket touts that are all around, it's notable that Heathrow Express never have any difficulty having enough (or more than enough) of THEM on duty at all times. They also have them in the corridor inside the terminal, leaving Customs and before you even get out into the public area of the terminal, who prey very successfully on those arriving passengers with a limited command of English.

Yeah, 'cause they don't need months of training to acquire route & traction knowledge.

 

[jon0844]

Yeah, 'cause they don't need months of training to acquire route & traction knowledge.

Their route knowledge is if the airport buildings and corridors, and traction knowledge is simple - Heathrow Express!

 

[cjohnson]

Yeah, 'cause they don't need months of training to acquire route & traction knowledge.

How long is the training out of interest? Surely can't be as long as another TOC - given that there's only a short section of route and one class of traction to learn?

 

[paulravuslante]

of course they were! Wouldn't want to miss an opportunity to fleece the punters.

Does anyone know what is happening to HEX drivers post crossrail? Is there an agreement for a few to transfer to crossrail / other TOC's?

Nothing has been said as yet, so some drivers are hedging their bets and moving on now if it suits them. The official line was to reduce numbers through natural wastage until the Connect goes, but as more are leaving than can be trained, there is a constant shortage.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How long is the training out of interest? Surely can't be as long as another TOC - given that there's only a short section of route and one class of traction to learn?

It's two class of traction (332 and 360). Training is normally about 6-7 months from start to passing out.

 

[JN114]

As a point of order - while GWR "jointly" operate the connect service, their only true responsibility to the service is some paperwork, station staffing at non-Heathrow stations and ensuring stations are served per franchise agreement. If NR/HEX want to cancel the Connects then the decision lies solely with them. GWR control get no say in the matter despite their obligations to the the unserved stations. Depending on the length of the outage, then a GWR replacement service to/from Hayes may run, but that's no good of the connects have been cancelled to create paths during infrastructure problems, as tends to be the main reason to cancel them.

To the comparisons with Chiltern/WSMR, the situation is not the same. GWR is obligated per their franchise agreement to contribute to the joint Connect operation. The DfT aren't going to sanction GWR for doing exactly what it says in their franchise agreement.

 

[SWT_USER]

As a point of order - while GWR "jointly" operate the connect service, their only true responsibility to the service is some paperwork, station staffing at non-Heathrow stations and ensuring stations are served per franchise agreement. If NR/HEX want to cancel the Connects then the decision lies solely with them. GWR control get no say in the matter despite their obligations to the the unserved stations. Depending on the length of the outage, then a GWR replacement service to/from Hayes may run, but that's no good of the connects have been cancelled to create paths during infrastructure problems, as tends to be the main reason to cancel them.

To the comparisons with Chiltern/WSMR, the situation is not the same. GWR is obligated per their franchise agreement to contribute to the joint Connect operation. The DfT aren't going to sanction GWR for doing exactly what it says in their franchise agreement.

as far as I'm aware the franchise agreement didn't say provide a 50% service reduction because separate, non franchised, TOC is having fleet problems..

Who is being fined for the current HC cancellations, GWR (as the franchise holder) or HC?

Wouldn't be as much of a problem if GWR stopped their new trains at Hanwell, the only station to be wholly reliant on the awful HC.

 

[matt_world2004]

Gwr in their franchise agreement has a minimum frequencyin which they need to serve hayes & harlington, southall, hanwell, west ealing, ealing broadway and paddington. If they contract that franchise obligation out and their contractor fails in their obligations that is not the dft or travelling publics problem its gwr 's. They made the choice to contract that franchise obligation out, they made the choice not to specify any punishment for hc failing to meet those obligations, therefore gwr is the one that needs to be sanctioned.

 

[JN114]

as far as I'm aware the franchise agreement didn't say provide a 50% service reduction because separate, non franchised, TOC is having fleet problems..

Who is being fined for the current HC cancellations, GWR (as the franchise holder) or HC?

Wouldn't be as much of a problem if GWR stopped their new trains at Hanwell, the only station to be wholly reliant on the awful HC.

I thought we'd gone over the whys regarding the HEX issue earlier this year at the time. As always there is a much bigger picture in play - although I appreciate that is of little comfort to the travelling public who can't see the bigger picture. If the resources were available, and it didn't cause massive congestion on the Up Relief (where down trains terminating in Hayes Bay have to run Down the Up Relief for nearly a mile) then without hesitation a half hourly Hayes shuttle would have been implemented. Unfortunately, there were neither the resources to do it (we ended up running hourly Greenfords on one of the days to cover Hayes hourly) - and terminating in the bay caused massive congestion on the Up Relief, especially in the morning peak.

There aren't any current Connect cancellations, they're running a near-normal service at the moment (I think they're diverting some to T4 vice the ITT, but that doesn't affect my interest in their service) But fiscally it's dealt with like any other train service cancellation at any other station on any operators network. The GW/HX agreement has been in review at exec level of both companies following March's little 332 withdrawal.

There are compatibility issues preventing 387s calling at Hanwell. These should be rectified in the coming months.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Gwr in their franchise agreement has a minimum frequencyin which they need to serve hayes & harlington, southall, hanwell, west ealing, ealing broadway and paddington. If they contract that franchise obligation out and their contractor fails in their obligations that is not the dft or travelling publics problem its gwr 's. They made the choice to contract that franchise obligation out, they made the choice not to specify any punishment for hc failing to meet those obligations, therefore gwr is the one that needs to be sanctioned.

In terms of payments to the DfT for train service cancellations, then GW already pay for any Connect services that fail to call at stations between Hayes and Ealing (incl) - As is standard to all operators on any franchise. If you're suggesting there should be further penalties then as per my post above - GW is obligated to turn over their operating rights to Heathrow Express to run the Connect service through their franchise agreement. When the connects don't run alternative transport is GW's responsibility, and as per my reply above best efforts will be made to ensure stations are served, but only within rolling stock, staffing and network capacity constraints. DfT is *not* going to sanction GWR for something they are obligated to do through their franchise agreement, this isn't anything like Chiltern/WSMRs situation, can we please stop flogging that dead horse?

 

[matt_world2004]

I thought we'd gone over the whys regarding the HEX issue earlier this year at the time. As always there is a much bigger picture in play - although I appreciate that is of little comfort to the travelling public who can't see the bigger picture. If the resources were available, and it didn't cause massive congestion on the Up Relief (where down trains terminating in Hayes Bay have to run Down the Up Relief for nearly a mile) then without hesitation a half hourly Hayes shuttle would have been implemented. Unfortunately, there were neither the resources to do it (we ended up running hourly Greenfords on one of the days to cover Hayes hourly) - and terminating in the bay caused massive congestion on the Up Relief, especially in the morning peak.

There aren't any current Connect cancellations, they're running a near-normal service at the moment (I think they're diverting some to T4 vice the ITT, but that doesn't affect my interest in their service) But fiscally it's dealt with like any other train service cancellation at any other station on any operators network. The GW/HX agreement has been in review at exec level of both companies following March's little 332 withdrawal.

There are compatibility issues preventing 387s calling at Hanwell. These should be rectified in the coming months.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


In terms of payments to the DfT for train service cancellations, then GW already pay for any Connect services that fail to call at stations between Hayes and Ealing (incl) - As is standard to all operators on any franchise. If you're suggesting there should be further penalties then as per my post above - GW is obligated to turn over their operating rights to Heathrow Express to run the Connect service through their franchise agreement. When the connects don't run alternative transport is GW's responsibility, and as per my reply above best efforts will be made to ensure stations are served, but only within rolling stock, staffing and network capacity constraints. DfT is *not* going to sanction GWR for something they are obligated to do through their franchise agreement, this isn't anything like Chiltern/WSMRs situation, can we please stop flogging that dead horse?

good they should receive failure to call fines . That is a sanction they should also sacrifice their travelcard revenue for failing to carry those users with travelcards . They should also pay tfl £6.00 per passenger carried on the 140 and 105 who presents a hc ticket. I am guessing they are not paying the £10000-£30000 per cancelled trip that crossrail charges their concessionaire though..Otherwise first group will be in the bankruptcy court.

 

[SWT_USER]

I thought we'd gone over the whys regarding the HEX issue earlier this year at the time. As always there is a much bigger picture in play - although I appreciate that is of little comfort to the travelling public who can't see the bigger picture. If the resources were available, and it didn't cause massive congestion on the Up Relief (where down trains terminating in Hayes Bay have to run Down the Up Relief for nearly a mile) then without hesitation a half hourly Hayes shuttle would have been implemented. Unfortunately, there were neither the resources to do it (we ended up running hourly Greenfords on one of the days to cover Hayes hourly) - and terminating in the bay caused massive congestion on the Up Relief, especially in the morning peak.

There aren't any current Connect cancellations, they're running a near-normal service at the moment (I think they're diverting some to T4 vice the ITT, but that doesn't affect my interest in their service) But fiscally it's dealt with like any other train service cancellation at any other station on any operators network. The GW/HX agreement has been in review at exec level of both companies following March's little 332 withdrawal.

There are compatibility issues preventing 387s calling at Hanwell. These should be rectified in the coming months.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


In terms of payments to the DfT for train service cancellations, then GW already pay for any Connect services that fail to call at stations between Hayes and Ealing (incl) - As is standard to all operators on any franchise. If you're suggesting there should be further penalties then as per my post above - GW is obligated to turn over their operating rights to Heathrow Express to run the Connect service through their franchise agreement. When the connects don't run alternative transport is GW's responsibility, and as per my reply above best efforts will be made to ensure stations are served, but only within rolling stock, staffing and network capacity constraints. DfT is *not* going to sanction GWR for something they are obligated to do through their franchise agreement, this isn't anything like Chiltern/WSMRs situation, can we please stop flogging that dead horse?

Wasn't aware of any issues preventing calling it Hanwell - do you know what they are specifically? Also do you know if they are planned to call at Hanwell once they have been resolved? They have had months to sort any issues though so no excuse not to have it sorted by now.

Appreciate the rest of what you say re GW paying for any cancellations between Paddington and Hayes. I still don't think GWR did enough during the 332 withdrawal and would love to know what (if anything) changed following the review at exec level.

 

[JN114]

good they should receive failure to call fines . That is a sanction they should also sacrifice their travelcard revenue for failing to carry those users with travelcards . They should also pay tfl £6.00 per passenger carried on the 140 and 105 who presents a hc ticket. I am guessing they are not paying the £10000-£30000 per cancelled trip that crossrail charges their concessionaire though..Otherwise first group will be in the bankruptcy court.

GWR are not liable for Heathrow Express's failure provide a service between Hayes and Heathrow. At that point it is solely HXs service, GWR don't get any monies from tickets sold to/from Heathrow. That all goes to BAA. TfL charge Heathrow Connect for ticket acceptance on their services, as they do any TOC (and as any TOC charges TfL)

Exact figures on cancellation payments to DfT are commercially sensitive. But as I've already said, failure to call at intermediate stations is chargeable to GW.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wasn't aware of any issues preventing calling it Hanwell - do you know what they are specifically? Also do you know if they are planned to call at Hanwell once they have been resolved? They have had months to sort any issues though so no excuse not to have it sorted by now.

Appreciate the rest of what you say re GW paying for any cancellations between Paddington and Hayes. I still don't think GWR did enough during the 332 withdrawal and would love to know what (if anything) changed following the review at exec level.

Not aware of what the exact issues are, but they were discovered during testing and should be resolved by the end of December. I believe the Hayes shuttles will be calling once the issues are resolved.

 

[matt_world2004]

Aq

GWR are not liable for Heathrow Express's failure provide a service between Hayes and Heathrow. At that point it is solely HXs service, GWR don't get any monies from tickets sold to/from Heathrow. That all goes to BAA. TfL charge Heathrow Connect for ticket acceptance on their services, as they do any TOC (and as any TOC charges TfL)

Exact figures on cancellation payments to DfT are commercially sensitive. But as I've already said, failure to call at intermediate stations is chargeable to GW.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It was however GwR that booked the ticket acceptance on the 140 and 105 so if they are doing that on behalf of heathrow airport they are the ones liable for the cross charges.I know from the per passenger price that has been charged by tfl that heathrow are making a healthy profit out of the hc not running . Also if fines are commercially sensitive how come tfl can release what they fine an operator. We know that gwr are not being fined on the same level as mtr crossrail because if they were losing £40 000 per hour they wouldn't last long.

 

[Taunton]

I think we are aware that the last section from Hayes to Heathrow is not under a DfT franchise, but that does not excuse Heathrow from cancelling a mainstream public transport service whenever they find it convenient, and does not excuse DfT from looking the other way about the constant failing of the service to allow local passengers to access Heathrow, as if going on the train there was some sort of optional leisure operation.

The DfT seems oblivious to anti-consumer attitudes at British airports, despite a separate department there bending over backwards to give Heathrow expanded capacity. Airports charging £5 just to drive in and drop people off at the door has been allowed to spread as well, and what should be a major public service provision has been reduced to a cash cow for overseas investors.

 

[JN114]

Aq
It was however GwR that booked the ticket acceptance on the 140 and 105 so if they are doing that on behalf of heathrow airport they are the ones liable for the cross charges.I know from the per passenger price that has been charged by tfl that heathrow are making a healthy profit out of the hc not running . Also if fines are commercially sensitive how come tfl can release what they fine an operator. We know that gwr are not being fined on the same level as mtr crossrail because if they were losing £40 000 per hour they wouldn't last long.

TfL isn't a private company. GWR is.

If you seriously have an issue with the fees that TfL are charging for ticket acceptance, then given the level of internal knowledge you've demonstrated here I suggest you raise the matter internally. TfL will be better able to explain the reasoning than I can on a public forum.

 

[matt_world2004]

TfL isn't a private company. GWR is.

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[SWT_USER]

Hanwell effectively left without an evening peak service today as the 17:03, 18:03 and 18:33 services are cancelled. GWR not bothering to stop any services either which is disappointing.

Is this staff shortages or leaf fall related?

 

[paulravuslante]

Hanwell effectively left without an evening peak service today as the 17:03, 18:03 and 18:33 services are cancelled. GWR not bothering to stop any services either which is disappointing.

Is this staff shortages or leaf fall related?

Failed train according to the website.

 

[cjohnson]

Are HC services now serving T4 again? RTT suggests they are, but Timetable on their website indicates a change at T2/3 is still required, as does this page.

Indeed, the whole operation smacks as an afterthought now. Their website (design of which which looks like it has not been updated in 7 years) contains a what looks like an advert saying "Why not take the Heathrow Express instead".

https://www.heathrowconnect.com/about-us/our-company
has incorrect fares and timetable information

https://www.heathrowconnect.com/about-us/condition-of-carriage
Still refers to the old NRCoC (is there/should there not be a seperate section for conditions of carriage/travel applicable between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow, similar to HEx's separate conditions of travel?)

https://www.heathrowconnect.com/tickets/save-with-a-railcard
No mention of time restrictions on 16/25 or Network railcard discounts

And the commuters from Hanwell especially suffer from the HC cancellations as they don't even get the benefit of the fancy new 387s which are unable to stop there for reasons yet to be fully explained.

 

[paulravuslante]

Are HC services now serving T4 again? RTT suggests they are, but Timetable on their website indicates a change at T2/3 is still required, as does this page.

Yes, the Connect service is back to running mostly between Pad and T4 (bar certain evening journeys Mon to Thurs). It did return to T5 (bar Sunday's) from 17th October but only for a week due to driver shortages making it difficult to run the full T4 shuttle service. Apparently it will go back to T5 again at some point in future.