Heathrow Southern Link proposals

[hwl]

The Heathrow Southern Railway company have assumed that the 4 trains per hour Paddington-Heathrow-Basingstoke/Guildford services would be replacing the HEX services. There is unlikely to be enough paths on the GWML without.

They also assume that the grade separated junction at Woking is built so that paths to Guildford are available which don't cross the flat junction in Woking. They also mentioned that the long term plan for a grade separated junction in Basingstoke would also make sense. I don't know if the grade separated junctions are all that is required to allow services to go all the way to Portsmouth and Southampton.

And more power supply improvements for a starter as well!

 

[kevin_roche]

I don't know if the grade separated junctions are all that is required to allow services to go all the way to Portsmouth and Southampton.

It actually seems to me that it would be easier to build a turn back just beyond Worting junction so that stopping services and the new Heathrow service could turn without crossing the flat junction in Basingstoke. Trains could head west on the Salisbury line take a siding just after Worting and come back to Basingstoke for the next trip joining the line from Southampton.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It actually seems to me that it would be easier to build a turn back just beyond Worting junction so that stopping services and the new Heathrow service could turn without crossing the flat junction in Basingstoke. Trains could head west on the Salisbury line take a siding just after Worting and come back to Basingstoke for the next trip joining the line from Southampton.

Even better - they could build a station on the Salisbury line at Oakley and have the trains terminate there. I'm not sure though if the grade-separated junction at Basingstoke might still be important to remove conflicts between SWR and XC trains.

Though having said that, I'm more inclined to see Guildford rather than Basingstoke as a slightly more appropriate terminus for those trains anyway.

 

[The Ham]

Even better - they could build a station on the Salisbury line at Oakley and have the trains terminate there. I'm not sure though if the grade-separated junction at Basingstoke might still be important to remove conflicts between SWR and XC trains.

Though having said that, I'm more inclined to see Guildford rather than Basingstoke as a slightly more appropriate terminus for those trains anyway.

To resolve most of the conflicts from the flat junction at Basingstoke you could also extend the Basingstoke Stoppers to Oakley as well.

Why is Guildford more appropriate than Basingstoke. Basingstoke and Dean has a larger population than the Borough of Guildford likewise for each town Basingstoke is larger.

However Basingstoke has the advantage of serving Farnborough Main (which is easier to get to for some in the Borough of Guildford to get to than Guildford), which boosts the numbers further.

 

[Bald Rick]

To resolve most of the conflicts from the flat junction at Basingstoke you could also extend the Basingstoke Stoppers to Oakley as well.

Why is Guildford more appropriate than Basingstoke. Basingstoke and Dean has a larger population than the Borough of Guildford likewise for each town Basingstoke is larger.

By far the majority of people who live in the Borough of Guildford will find Guildford easier to get than Farnboro’ Main. And I say that as a former resident of the north west corner of Guildford Borough. There is a significant flow of people from Guildford Borough to Heathrow every day, and if the southern link is constructed, it would be foolish not to serve it.

 

[Meerkat]

A service from Basingstoke/Guildford to Paddington via Heathrow and OOC is going to rake in money, most of which will be new money (and that which isn’t would probably be less than the new connecting passengers on GW/SW).
As for Heathrow demanding a big share the DfT can play hardball once the GW fast line paths are up for renewal. Don’t cooperate, don’t get the paths, and we cut your flights allowed as public transport reduced.

 

[Class 170101]

The Heathrow Southern Railway company have assumed that the 4 trains per hour Paddington-Heathrow-Basingstoke/Guildford services would be replacing the HEX services. There is unlikely to be enough paths on the GWML without.

I had assumed that the Heathrow Express paths to terminal 5 would be the ones extended towards Portsmouth / Southampton in my thoughts anyway rather than as extra paths on the GWML.

 

[sparkie70]

Hello everyone. Just an outsider on this but will this proposed link not have a new track. The current route from Byfleet & New Haw to Staines has four road level crossings. Ok Chertsey is not an issue as the A320 goes over a bridge but Addlestone does get bottleneck and with 6 trains an hour i dont see the emergency services liking this.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

To resolve most of the conflicts from the flat junction at Basingstoke you could also extend the Basingstoke Stoppers to Oakley as well.

Why is Guildford more appropriate than Basingstoke. Basingstoke and Dean has a larger population than the Borough of Guildford likewise for each town Basingstoke is larger.

However Basingstoke has the advantage of serving Farnborough Main (which is easier to get to for some in the Borough of Guildford to get to than Guildford), which boosts the numbers further.

To add to Bald Rick's comments... partly because, if/when the Western link to Heathrow is built and depending what service patterns are, people in Basingstoke may find it quicker to get to Heathrow/OOC/Paddington via Reading. No such alternative exists for Guildford.

Partly because there are already loads of trains Woking-Basingstoke, but a relatively infrequent service Woking-Guildford.

And also - and I know I'm in the realm of crayonista suggestions here, but: If (big if I know) you could solve the Egham level crossing problem so the Southern Link runs Heathrow-Egham-Chertsey-Woking, then it would seem plausible to also extend the Aldershot-Ascot trains to Egham and Heathrow, which then gives a direct connection from the Farnham-Camberley urban area to Heathrow. Hence no need for direct trains from Farnborough via Woking.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Hello everyone. Just an outsider on this but will this proposed link not have a new track. The current route from Byfleet & New Haw to Staines has four road level crossings. Ok Chertsey is not an issue as the A320 goes over a bridge but Addlestone does get bottleneck and with 6 trains an hour i dont see the emergency services liking this.

There have been several proposals, and I have to admit I've rather lost track of which particular one we are discussing. Certainly, routing via the exsting track through Egham hits the problem of the level crossings, which is one reason why the original proposal to do that was rejected - although it would have required very little extra track construction (basically, a West-North chord just west of Staines and a link from the Staines-Windsor line to Heathrow). More recently there has been a proposal that involves building a whole new line from somewhere near Chertsey Northwards, though I forget the details.

Personally, I would've thought that, for the cost of such a new line, you could probably come up with some scheme to build a short new road somewhere around Egham to provide an alternative to the level crossings and then just run trains that way (which has the advantage of serving Egham on the new trains).

 

[kevin_roche]

Hello everyone. Just an outsider on this but will this proposed link not have a new track. The current route from Byfleet & New Haw to Staines has four road level crossings. Ok Chertsey is not an issue as the A320 goes over a bridge but Addlestone does get bottleneck and with 6 trains an hour i dont see the emergency services liking this.

The current proposal from the Heathrow Southern Railway is that a new tunnel would be built from Heathrow to Virginia Water. This would run alongside the M25 and under it at some point. There would also be an exit to join the line near Staines for Waterloo bound trains. Trains to Basingstoke and Guildford would go through Virginia Water, Chertsey and Addlestone on the existing line. They would join the main line and head towards Woking.

 

[crablab]

And also - and I know I'm in the realm of crayonista suggestions here, but: If (big if I know) you could solve the Egham level crossing problem

This will probably need solving anyway, sooner or later. The real question is what can be done aside from just closing them...

 

[matt_world2004]

The current proposal from the Heathrow Southern Railway is that a new tunnel would be built from Heathrow to Virginia Water. This would run alongside the M25 and under it at some point. There would also be an exit to join the line near Staines for Waterloo bound trains. Trains to Basingstoke and Guildford would go through Virginia Water, Chertsey and Addlestone on the existing line. They would join the main line and head towards Woking.

Isn't there already a semi disused spur that was used for delivering construction equipment to T5. It could be connected to that.

 

[kevin_roche]

Isn't there already a semi disused spur that was used for delivering construction equipment to T5. It could be connected to that.

There is an abandoned track in about the right place, so that is possible where it would join the line to Staines.

 

[sparkie70]

There have been several proposals, and I have to admit I've rather lost track of which particular one we are discussing. Certainly, routing via the exsting track through Egham hits the problem of the level crossings, which is one reason why the original proposal to do that was rejected - although it would have required very little extra track construction (basically, a West-North chord just west of Staines and a link from the Staines-Windsor line to Heathrow). More recently there has been a proposal that involves building a whole new line from somewhere near Chertsey Northwards, though I forget the details.

Personally, I would've thought that, for the cost of such a new line, you could probably come up with some scheme to build a short new road somewhere around Egham to provide an alternative to the level crossings and then just run trains that way (which has the advantage of serving Egham on the new trains).

The current Weybridge to London waterloo often has to wait at Virginia Water for a train coming or going to Camberley.

The current proposal from the Heathrow Southern Railway is that a new tunnel would be built from Heathrow to Virginia Water. This would run alongside the M25 and under it at some point. There would also be an exit to join the line near Staines for Waterloo bound trains. Trains to Basingstoke and Guildford would go through Virginia Water, Chertsey and Addlestone on the existing line. They would join the main line and head towards Woking.

OK so basically knocking out Staines & Egham. But that still leaves a road crossing at Addlestone town centre.

 

[The Ham]

To add to Bald Rick's comments... partly because, if/when the Western link to Heathrow is built and depending what service patterns are, people in Basingstoke may find it quicker to get to Heathrow/OOC/Paddington via Reading. No such alternative exists for Guildford.

Partly because there are already loads of trains Woking-Basingstoke, but a relatively infrequent service Woking-Guildford.

And also - and I know I'm in the realm of crayonista suggestions here, but: If (big if I know) you could solve the Egham level crossing problem so the Southern Link runs Heathrow-Egham-Chertsey-Woking, then it would seem plausible to also extend the Aldershot-Ascot trains to Egham and Heathrow, which then gives a direct connection from the Farnham-Camberley urban area to Heathrow. Hence no need for direct trains from Farnborough via Woking.

During the morning (07:00 to 08:00) there's 7 trains between Basingstoke and Woking. Of these 4 call at all the stations between the the two.

Compare this to Guildford where there's 4 which call at Woking.

Now whilst this at first glance looks like that there's more demand for extra services between Guildford and Woking, this ignores the 10tph between Guildford and Waterloo.

This compares with the 8 services between Basingstoke and Waterloo.

Also it would be easy to create extra capacity between Woking and Guildford by extending the Woking Stoppers to Guildford, which would be possible once the junction at Woking is sorted.

Overall the picture is one where there's no clear overall winner for getting all the services and so a splitting of the services between the two would appear to be the most likely outcome.

 

[Bald Rick]

Overall the picture is one where there's no clear overall winner for getting all the services and so a splitting of the services between the two would appear to be the most likely outcome.

If it gets built, it’s the certain outcome, as it drives significantly greater benefits for a smaller resource commitment than sending everything to Basingstoke (or further).

 

[kevin_roche]

The current Weybridge to London waterloo often has to wait at Virginia Water for a train coming or going to Camberley.

OK so basically knocking out Staines & Egham. But that still leaves a road crossing at Addlestone town centre.

Their original proposal had an option for a tunnel going all the way past Addlestone, but that seems to have been dropped from their website map now.

 

[MarkyT]

Their original proposal had an option for a tunnel going all the way past Addlestone, but that seems to have been dropped from their website map now.

An alternative might be to construct a temporary bay platform at Addlestone alongside the existing station to accommodate the short terminated Weybridge trains. The railway would then be rebuilt to pass over or under the road including new through platforms at the revised level. A trench would be preferable for noise and visual obtrusion. Some over-track development might be possible over parts of the new trench and station. During the works a connecting bus service to Weybridge would be provided clearly.
At Virginia Water the curved platform alignment for the branch might be eased by swinging out to the west a little, allowing through non-stop speed to be raised and platform stepping distance to be improved.
At the Staines end the intersection with the Windsor line might be equipped with an additional south-west chord so Reading and Weybridge trains could also be diverted via the new tunnel route under Egham needing a new trench station where it passes under the current railway, ideally close to the existing station. Thus the existing railway and it's three level crossings could be closed and the alignment repurposed as a green transport corridor for active off road travel all the way into Staines town centre, or a bus or tramway. Staines station might be moved to the more convenient location on straight track just north of the High Street bridge, where the old Airtrack project once proposed an additional station.

 

[Nick_C]

It actually seems to me that it would be easier to build a turn back just beyond Worting junction so that stopping services and the new Heathrow service could turn without crossing the flat junction in Basingstoke. Trains could head west on the Salisbury line take a siding just after Worting and come back to Basingstoke for the next trip joining the line from Southampton.

Isn't the problem more the junction with the Reading line at the east end of Basingstoke station? Worting already has the flyover so up and down trains don't have to cross each other.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Isn't the problem more the junction with the Reading line at the east end of Basingstoke station? Worting already has the flyover so up and down trains don't have to cross each other.

I don't think it's just the Reading trains. The half-hourly Waterloo-Basingstoke stoppers have to cross over all the tracks at Basingstoke to get from the down-slow to the up-slow track. I believe the grade-separated junction Network Rail have proposed is designed to solve both problems. A few people here - including myself - have suggested that a turnback (or station) somewhere West of Basingstoke might be a better way of solving the issue of terminating trains - although obviously that won't help the conflicts with the XC trains from Reading.

 

[The Ham]

I don't think it's just the Reading trains. The half-hourly Waterloo-Basingstoke stoppers have to cross over all the tracks at Basingstoke to get from the down-slow to the up-slow track. I believe the grade-separated junction Network Rail have proposed is designed to solve both problems. A few people here - including myself - have suggested that a turnback (or station) somewhere West of Basingstoke might be a better way of solving the issue of terminating trains - although obviously that won't help the conflicts with the XC trains from Reading.

The XC services only happen once or twice an hour and are only a problem for southbound services. There's also a few freight services (some of which use the paths of the XC services in the hours when they don't run).

 

[The Ham]

There was a parliamentary debate today, starting at 19:00, hopefully it can be viewed on this link, if not look it up on parliamentary TV:

Parliamentlive.tv

House of Commons

parliamentlive.tv

 

[Class 170101]

There was a parliamentary debate today, starting at 19:00, hopefully it can be viewed on this link, if not look it up on parliamentary TV:

A bit of a non-event sadly.

 

[mwmbwls]

Heathrow Southern and Western Rail Connections - prior to 2018 proposals by Mwmbwls, on Flickr
Heathrow Southern Rail Proposal 2020 by Mwmbwls, on Flickr
Are the hatched sections now all tunelled?
This project also featured recently on the Conservative Home Web Site
https://www.conservativehome.com/pl...-of-officialdom-from-our-railway-network.html

The obvious political difficulty is that such a project would contentious if it required public funding at the expense of projects further north.

 

[Bald Rick]

This project is dead I’m afraid. Dead as that squirrel.

 

[Non Multi]

Killed by Covid-19? Or was it dead pre-pandemic?

 

[infobleep]

This project is dead I’m afraid. Dead as that squirrel.

So if it's dead, does that mean Guildford won't get another platform?

 

[Bald Rick]

Killed by Covid-19? Or was it dead pre-pandemic?

It was heading to intensive care before the pandemic, but the change in travel patterns, particularly in the air industry, has seen it off.

Of course I could be wrong and it might be Lazarus in a few years.

So if it's dead, does that mean Guildford won't get another platform?

A new platform at Guildford was never a part of HSLs plans.

 

[yorkie]

If anyone wishes to continue this discussion, please use the following thread:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/southern-approach-to-heathrow-hs2.206935/