Heathrow to Gatwick - entirely on existing infrastructure?

[showchaser]

Please forgive me if this post is a tad ill-educated. That warning out of the way, I know that many complex proposals have been made over the years for the construction of new infrastructure to facilitate a rail connection between Heathrow and Gatwick airports.

Of course, because this is Britain, such things have not come to fruition as swiftly as might have been dreamt.

I was wondering, therefore—no matter how terribly slow the journey—if it would be possible to run a service from LHR to LGW on existing track. A sort of make-do-by-any-means-necessary solution.


The only “cheap” improvements which I suppose would be contemplated in this bargain scenario would be improvements to signalling on small sections of track, or the installation of shoes onto existing trains.

Therefore, to ask a highly stupid question, could a special service with a Class 700 run all the way to Heathrow Rail? Is there an interchange with the Elizabeth Line? And if not, what would the best route be…Kensington Olympia? And what would the best trains be? I do not know enough about trains to figure it out myself.

Thanks for any responses! I just find this interesting.

 

[JonathanH]

Therefore, to ask a highly stupid question, could a special service with a Class 700 run all the way to Heathrow Rail?

No, not without reversals.

Is there an interchange with the Elizabeth Line?

Passengers can simply change at Farringdon. That is a very reasonable way of getting from Gatwick to Heathrow on existing infrastructure.

Kensington Olympia

Yes, but not yet electrified between the North London Line and the Great Western Line. See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/acton-main-line-to-acton-wells-jct-electrification.272210/

 

[Topological]

Looks doable, though others may know better the electrification around Willesden Junction as there does look to a chord that could be used. Would need to be capable of both electrification types.

I used the map here: https://maps.walkingclub.org.uk/rail/rail_lines_google_map.shtml

That could be out of date as well.

 

[showchaser]

Thanks to both of you! That’s really helpful and quite interesting. I would love to know, what would be a rough journey time for such a service via Kensington Olympia/Willesden?

I agree that the Elizabeth Line and Thameslink (via lift!) offer a great connection at the moment. A direct service would make a lot of people happy though.

Also, I read that many years ago, when the Heathrow Express was first imagined, the thought was that it would go to St Pancras. Is that possible? How would be achieved?

Sorry for all the questions!

 

[DelW]

Looks doable, though others may know better the electrification around Willesden Junction as there does look to a chord that could be used. Would need to be capable of both electrification types.

I used the map here: https://maps.walkingclub.org.uk/rail/rail_lines_google_map.shtml

That could be out of date as well.

The route through Willesden South West Sidings must be viable as the GWR Euston diversions are using it.

There used to be a better connection between the West London Line and the GW main line at North Pole until it was removed when North Pole depot was converted for Eurostar use in the early 1990s. Since it's been modified again for Hitachi's use that might be (theoretically) capable of reinstatement.

There's a spare fleet of 769/9s with AC, DC and diesel capabilities...

 

[showchaser]

The route through Willesden South West Sidings must be viable as the GWR Euston diversions are using it.

There used to be a better connection between the West London Line and the GW main line at North Pole until it was removed when North Pole depot was converted for Eurostar use in the early 1990s. Since it's been modified again for Hitachi's use that might be (theoretically) capable of reinstatement.

There's a spare fleet of 769/9s with AC, DC and diesel capabilities...

This is a route taken by one of the Euston diversions. How would the imaginary Heathrow-Gatwick train use this to get to Gatwick? Sorry to ask, I really am a beginner in terms of paths!

 

[bangor-toad]

There used to be a better connection between the West London Line and the GW main line at North Pole until it was removed when North Pole depot was converted for Eurostar use in the early 1990s. Since it's been modified again for Hitachi's use that might be (theoretically) capable of reinstatement.

If you look online you can see the stub of this connection. It left the West London line to the east, dropped down, looped under a road and the West London Line and then joined the GWML direct onto the Fast lines.
The initial bit is still visible but the bridge under the road has been repurposed to provide the road access to the Hitachi depot. There's also the main rail access to the Hitachi depot here that goes over the old route.
As an aside, I used this link quite a few times whilst it existed. It was always entertaining going from a crawl, or standing start, onto the GWML fasts with seemingly as much power being used as was possible. I've always assumed it was to get up to 'normal' linespeed as quickly as possible.

Years later when the depot was built any such routing needed to cross above the GWML, get to Willesden Junction in a big loop and then make it's way to Ealing Broadway. This was *so* slow and the track condition felt as if it had last been improved in 1899. (I know that's not actually true!)
This routing is the one others referred to by others above. It isn't electrified and even though the tracks will have been improved it's not a fast route.

A Gatwick <--> Heathrow service could use this route, operated by Class 769/9's. It'd need little, if any, new infrastructure.
Would it be sensible? No. 769/9s are old, where would the paths come from and would the economics make any sense at all?

IMHO, the best way to get a Gatwick <--> Heathrow service would be to spend some money printing some posters letting people know there's only one change at Farringdon, pricing up sensible tickets and then promoting them.


Cheers,
Mr Toad

 

[JonathanH]

A direct service would make a lot of people happy though.

Which people would it make happy?

As an aside, I used this link quite a few times whilst it existed. It was always entertaining going from a crawl, or standing start, onto the GWML fasts with seemingly as much power being used as was possible. I've always assumed it was to get up to 'normal' linespeed as quickly as possible.

Yes, I recall one particular journey when, having come round via the slow lines through Willesden, the Voyager I was riding got put on the fast lines at Ealing or Southall and arrived at Reading well ahead of schedule. Other times it simply stayed on the slow lines.

Kensington Olympia to Ealing Broadway is certainly not a quick journey, and the paths used through South London to avoid crossing at Balham weren't quick either.

This is a route taken by one of the Euston diversions. How would the imaginary Heathrow-Gatwick train use this to get to Gatwick?

Think of the Clapham Junction to Watford Junction service and the Euston to South Wales diversions and see that they have a common point at Willesden West London Junction. That is where the two routes meet.

 

[showchaser]

Which people would it make happy?

Airline executives? Apart from them, I think the two main blocks of users would be stressed out tourists on flight connections with lots of bags, and anyone living in Shepherd's Bush down through Fulham and Clapham and beyond—who would gain a new direct connection to Heathrow. Maybe enough to justify a direct, perhaps may be not, I freely concede that! It is something of a fantasy, however the Heathrow Express's continued existence is strong proof that passengers will pay for a not entirely incomparable service.

Some extremely rudimentary calculations from me (probably wrong) suggest that a service with the appropriate paths could do the entire journey in 1h15m from Heathrow Central to Gatwick. That would be fairly market-competitive if it were the case, especially with M25 traffic and road access faff on both sides as an opponent.

 

[sjoh]

Of course, because this is Britain, such things have not come to fruition as swiftly as might have been dreamt.

Such things have not come to fruition because there is absolutely no sodding point.

 

[showchaser]

Potentially a fair comment. In an ideal world, the airports would be connected, simply because it would make life easier.

I think, in general, most of the projects—like, well, electrification, and building railways north of Birmingham—which we've lost in the last twenty years had a point. Maybe not this, however it would have been a nice-to-have along with a well-executed infrastructure policy which didn't cost four times promised for about a third of the result.

 

[MarkyT]

There used to be a better connection between the West London Line and the GW main line at North Pole until it was removed when North Pole depot was converted for Eurostar use in the early 1990s.

The divergence on the Mains (fast tracks) was West London Junction I recall. The Eurostar depot was built on an old freight yard, out of use by that time.

Since it's been modified again for Hitachi's use that might be (theoretically) capable of reinstatement.

I doubt it would be practical as the Hitachi depot yard continues through and has its main exit towards Paddington to the east of the West London Line bridge and there are some holding sidings and other facilities on that side. It likely wouldn't be practical to cross the slow depot movements in the area, and up main trains going to the WLL would also have to cross the down main via a flat junction.

A routing via Acton Wells, Willesden low level and the WLL would be slow and complex to plan, fitting between freights and LO services. At Clapham Jn, trains could only join the Brighton slows then fit between stopping services to Balham. where further conflicts would be faced crossing to the down fast. The trains would also conflict with NLL and freight services at Acton Wells. Not practical operationally for frequent routine service I think.

 

[Topological]

If you look online you can see the stub of this connection. It left the West London line to the east, dropped down, looped under a road and the West London Line and then joined the GWML direct onto the Fast lines.
The initial bit is still visible but the bridge under the road has been repurposed to provide the road access to the Hitachi depot. There's also the main rail access to the Hitachi depot here that goes over the old route.
As an aside, I used this link quite a few times whilst it existed. It was always entertaining going from a crawl, or standing start, onto the GWML fasts with seemingly as much power being used as was possible. I've always assumed it was to get up to 'normal' linespeed as quickly as possible.

Years later when the depot was built any such routing needed to cross above the GWML, get to Willesden Junction in a big loop and then make it's way to Ealing Broadway. This was *so* slow and the track condition felt as if it had last been improved in 1899. (I know that's not actually true!)
This routing is the one others referred to by others above. It isn't electrified and even though the tracks will have been improved it's not a fast route.

A Gatwick <--> Heathrow service could use this route, operated by Class 769/9's. It'd need little, if any, new infrastructure.
Would it be sensible? No. 769/9s are old, where would the paths come from and would the economics make any sense at all?

IMHO, the best way to get a Gatwick <--> Heathrow service would be to spend some money printing some posters letting people know there's only one change at Farringdon, pricing up sensible tickets and then promoting them.


Cheers,
Mr Toad

Thank you for the interesting history. That long loop is indeed what I was thinking of. IF the will was there it could be electrified/improved, but it does beg the question of why bother?

Veering into full speculative territory, but an option for developing the 2nd Gatwick runway and having more BA hub connections that involved transfer from Heathrow to Gatwick could work. I was briefly thinking if the whole thing could be done "airside", but that is too risky.

I tend to agree that better advertising of the Farringdon connection is the best solution (though it is slow as I found out in October).

 

[Fenchurch SP]

It would be more useful as a stopping service to allow suburban passengers direct trains to the airports, could also be a sort of triangle including Stansted.

 

[SynthD]

In an ideal world, the airports would be connected, simply because it would make life easier.

But life is easier because the airports plan around the lack of the link.

A rail link that tries to copy Superloop would go through Kingston and end at Feltham, while a link that aims for the Heathrow stations would have to find room on the better utilised GW.

A map could be made showing only the rail lines needed to transfer between each airport. Eg thameslink, Elizabeth, various expresses. It would end up looking a bit like the night tube map.

 

[Snow1964]

I see mention has been made of the former spur to West London line, where track has now been lifted and it provides vehicle entrance to Hitachi (former Eurostar) depot.

There used to be another route, GWR had a Shepherds Bush branch, so could run via the Greenford spur, then alongside what is now Central line. Initially Central London railway ran on GWR tracks to Ealing, but separate tracks were added later. The GWR line track was just north of where the left hand running flyover is, it continued eastwards few hundred meters (beyond where central line curves towards White City / Wood Lane stations). It then curved towards Shepherds Bush, passing a milk depot on the curve to join west London line. The separate parallel tracks were removed after freight ended (Pioneer Way was built along the former line)

Recently the Milk depot site has been built on (Loverose Way), and West London line junction site is the taper of land behind another new road, Fountain Park Way

 

[BlueLeanie]

Which people would it make happy?

BA customers from Edinburgh & Glasgow who are connecting to a Gatwick service and other airline alliance members connecting in London.

The current daily BA flight from GLA-LGW is expected to be withdrawn shortly. There isn't currently a BA service from EDI to GLA. Unlike the rail industry, there is no requirement for an airline to carry passengers on the next available service when the incoming service is delayed when using split ticketing eg easyJet with advance tickets.

There is currently a regular coach service between the airports, but it suffers terribly due to the M25 congestion and the Luton bollard problems in Oxford.

I believe there is demand for such a service, but instead sorting an airline problem where they currently allow 3 hours to connect between airports (my goodness that is tight!), the railway should deliver a better solution.

The railway should be delivering a twice daily service from EDB to GTW (Gatwick Express +) using Class 387 stock. Say an 06:00 & 18:00 departure from Edinburgh, and a 10:00 & 16:00 departure from Gatwick.

I have made the assumption that 387s still have dual power functionality and they are allowed through the Thameslink tunnels. 700 series units with new seating for long distance travel and luggage would also be acceptable.

 

[Magdalia]

Please forgive me if this post is a tad ill-educated. That warning out of the way, I know that many complex proposals have been made over the years for the construction of new infrastructure to facilitate a rail connection between Heathrow and Gatwick airports.

Of course, because this is Britain, such things have not come to fruition as swiftly as might have been dreamt.

Such things have not come to fruition because there is absolutely no sodding point.

What is a Heathrow-Gatwick link for? Who would use it?

A direct service would make a lot of people happy though.

It would be useful to start with some statistics of the existing transit activity at the major London airports.

Anecdotally there is a lot of transit traffic at Heathrow and it competes with Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt for that traffic.

But how much existing transit traffic is there at Gatwick? Similarly for Stansted and Luton.

Whatever the numbers of transit passengers doing flights transiting in and out of Gatwick, the potential number of Gatwick-Heathrow transits is going to be smaller.

Airline executives?

Everyone should know what they want, even though they are unlikely to get it. That's a third runway at Heathrow.

IMHO, the best way to get a Gatwick <--> Heathrow service would be to spend some money printing some posters letting people know there's only one change at Farringdon, pricing up sensible tickets and then promoting them.

The obvious route is now via Farringdon, following significant investment in the Elizabeth Line and Thameslink in recent years. The first response to any question like this should be to make better use of what is already available.

The railway should be delivering a twice daily service from EDB to GTW (Gatwick Express +) using Class 387 stock. Say an 06:00 & 18:00 departure from Edinburgh, and a 10:00 & 16:00 departure from Gatwick.

No it shouldn't.

For the reasons why read the discussions here about the East Coast Main Line 2025 timetable and the Thameslink timetable.

Again, make use of what is already available. Most people going Edinburgh-Gatwick by train can easily do it by going to Kings Cross then crossing the road to St Pancras to get a train to Gatwick.

 

[BahrainLad]

Since the decay of the BA long haul network from Gatwick (which historically were a lot of ex BCal routes) in favour of short haul leisure, is there much of a flow between there and Heathrow left? I think it must have been 20 years since BA would put your luggage in one of their vans if you had a connection on one through ticket, now you have to claim it at one airport and check it back in at the next. I have done it once - arrived LHR T5 at 5am from HKG, arrivals lounge, jumped on a bus (they are very frequent) and it was about an hour to LGW where I waited a very long time for a flight to Marrakech. I’m not sure how a train could’ve improved on that.

If you’re in EDI and considering a BA routing that involves a LHR to LGW transfer then you really should consider an alternative, ideally a direct service or one via AMS, FRA etc.

 

[MarkyT]

Since the decay of the BA long haul network from Gatwick (which historically were a lot of ex BCal routes) in favour of short haul leisure, is there much of a flow between there and Heathrow left? I think it must have been 20 years since BA would put your luggage in one of their vans if you had a connection on one through ticket, now you have to claim it at one airport and check it back in at the next. I have done it once - arrived LHR T5 at 5am from HKG, arrivals lounge, jumped on a bus (they are very frequent) and it was about an hour to LGW where I waited a very long time for a flight to Marrakech. I’m not sure how a train could’ve improved on that.

I agree fairly fast frequent motorway bus links best serve that limited transfer demand. Trains would struggle to beat the journey time without a new more direct railway, say following the M25, and there simply isn't enough demand for that, unless that route was part of something larger linking places further afield to both airports. The vast majority of people entering or leaving both airports are not transferring between them. Connections are available via Farringdon today for those who inist on using rail. Other possibilities might be available in the future, e.g. A future Heathrow 'Airtrack' into Waterloo using the proposed southern connection to Staines could interchange with Brighton expresses for Gatwick at Clapham Jn.

 

[BlueLeanie]

No it shouldn't.

For the reasons why read the discussions here about the East Coast Main Line 2025 timetable and the Thameslink timetable.

Again, make use of what is already available. Most people going Edinburgh-Gatwick by train can easily do it by going to Kings Cross then crossing the road to St Pancras to get a train to Gatwick.

When there are 5 coach XC, Lumo and Hull services running up and down the ECML, I can see no good reason why running a 12 coach unit configured for airport travellers, twice a day from Edinburgh via key stations to Gatwick (and Brighton) would be such a terrible thing.

Timewise it would be far better for the traveller. Allow two hours to check-in and for security, 90 minutes for the flight, 3 hours for the connection between Gatwick and that's 6.5 hours. The train could do it in 5 hours.

 

[Topological]

When there are 5 coach XC, Lumo and Hull services running up and down the ECML, I can see no good reason why running a 12 coach unit configured for airport travellers, twice a day from Edinburgh via key stations to Gatwick (and Brighton) would be such a terrible thing.

Timewise it would be far better for the traveller. Allow two hours to check-in and for security, 90 minutes for the flight, 3 hours for the connection between Gatwick and that's 6.5 hours. The train could do it in 5 hours.

I suspect there is a limited market for this time comparison.

The relevant comparison would have a lot less time from Heathrow to Gatwick. The train element is 1 hour 20, and as others have said there is a bus. So even allowing an optimistic 1 hour to get off the plane, collect luggage and onto the train (there is no passport control), the difference between the two modes is almost 0.

However, there is also the very easy option of LNER/Lumo to Kings Cross and Thameslink from there to Brighton.

As others have said, you would also start checking options with Lufthansa, KLM, Air France etc. for connections that did not require a change of airport. Given these potential passengers do not mind collecting cases and checking in again there are probably options with Ryanair/Easyjet et al., that can get them to big hubs for onward flights.

Whilst I would love to see the British flag carrier better serving Britain, the airline is a global business and wants Heathrow to hub flights from all of the destinations. So BA might want a good transfer between Gatwick and Heathrow, but the passengers would have come from all over the network.

 

[DerekC]

Not suggesting there is a serious rationale for a Gatwick - Heathrow service, but it could be done physically via Dudding Hill and Acton Wells, I would have thought. You would need a bimode and I am not sure what line speed on the Dudding Hill line is, though.

 

[JonathanH]

Not suggesting there is a serious rationale for a Gatwick - Heathrow service, but it could be done physically via Dudding Hill and Acton Wells, I would have thought.

Going a long way out of the way though to the extent that it is slower than changing trains on sensible connecting routes.

 

[DerekC]

Going a long way out of the way though to the extent that it is slower than changing trains on sensible connecting routes.

Only an extra couple of miles. Anyway a bit of an academic argument since nobody is going to do it!!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The putative class 769 working on DC, AC and diesel via Willesden would also need to have ETCS to navigate the Heathrow Branch.
Once Acton Main Line-Acton Wells is wired, there's just 2 miles of Willesden South West sidings to do, for a fully electric route from Heathrow to Gatwick/Euston.
The HEX service once planned for St Pancras would have used the freight line from Acton Wells to Cricklewood, currently about 4 unwired miles over poor track.
The first mile of that would also give electric access to the WCML northbound, at Acton Canal Wharf Jn.

 

[Topological]

The putative class 769 working on DC, AC and diesel via Willesden would also need to have ETCS to navigate the Heathrow Branch.
Once Acton Main Line-Acton Wells is wired, there's just 2 miles of Willesden South West sidings to do, for a fully electric route from Heathrow to Gatwick/Euston.
The HEX service once planned for St Pancras would have used the freight line from Acton Wells to Cricklewood, currently about 4 unwired miles over poor track.
The first mile of that would also give electric access to the WCML northbound, at Acton Canal Wharf Jn.

Since this is a speculative thread, the St Pancras option would have allowed a Luton Airport to Heathrow via St Pancras (reverse) as well as through the Thameslink core to Gatwick.

Now we just need further round to reach Stansted and airport connectivity is sorted.

(My apologies to Southend)

 

[Magdalia]

Now we just need further round to reach Stansted and airport connectivity is sorted.

In 1990 Stansted was part of the original Thameslink 2000 proposal. It would have been reached by keeping the Kentish Town-Junction Road Junction curve and reinstating the west to north side of the triangle at Tottenham. See Chris Green's Network SouthEast Story pp103-104.