Help with refund following disruption to services

[rbannocks]

This may sound trivial, but I do not regard it as such and I hope you are able to help.

Recently I traveled from Stansted Airport to London Liverpool Street, or tried to. I had not flown in to Stansted for info. I went to the station there and purchased a full price single (19.90 I think) and boarded the first train which had just arrived in the platform. I sat on the service waiting for it to depart at it departure time 9.15pm. These were no indications of any delays on any of the screens at the station. About 5 mins after the departure time the driver came on the announcement system and said that due to a trespass on the line all the lines to London were closed in the Harlow area. He advised everyone to take the cross country service on platform 2 to Cambridge and change there. Duly every one lines up at the cross country service and waited for the train crew to open the doors which did not happen. After waiting for about 10 mins for this train by which time it departure time of 925pm was over due, Greater Anglia staff came to platform 2 and advised customers that cthe cross country staff on the train would not accept Greater Anglia tickets. They advised everyone to board the 10.20 service to Norwich on Platform 3. As you can imagine there were.a lot of people displaced from the London Stansted Aiport express service. After every one moved to platform 3 the cross country service departed. Eventually the 10.20 departed and arrived at Cambridge where we were able to take a Thameslink service to London Kings Cross as advised. I arrived at London Kings cross as almost exactly 00.00. As a result I had an additional bus fare of 1.55 on a TFL bus. No LU ticket acceptance was announced.

Greater Anglia have repaid the cost of the ticket. They are refusing to pay the 1.55 bus fare.

Given I was not delivered to the destination on the ticket can people please advise where I stand. I have limited funds so every penny counts. If you think this is trivial the I do not agree and perhaps you should skip to the next post. It is both a loss to me and a point of principle.

Greater Anglia said:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear (my name),

Thank you for your response to my email.

I understand you are looking to request further compensation. However, under the National Rail Conditions of Travel, we are only required to issue a refund up to the total cost of your ticket. Therefore, I will be unable to issue a refund for any further compensation.

I apologise for any inconvenience this may cause.

Yours Sincerely,

(advisers name)
Customer Experience Advisor
Greater Anglia

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Are you able to advise?

 

[AlterEgo]

Was your ticket valid to “London Liverpool Street” or to “London Terminals”?

 

[Titfield]

Are you out of pocket £1.55?

If GA repaid the full value of the ticket AND Thameslink accepted the ticket for travel (ie no new ticket was purchased) then the actual cost of the journey incurred was £1.55 - which is less than the price of the original ticket purchased from GA.

 

[Mak1981]

What did the staff at King's Cross say when you got there and asked how to get to Liverpool Street?

 

[transportphoto]

Where did you buy your ticket? Did you purchase this with the destination of “London Terminals” or specifically to Liverpool Street? If you purchased the ticket to “London Terminals” or indeed just “London” without specifying any specific destination it would be hard to argue that they’ve not fulfilled the contract of getting you to London.

What evidence have you provided Greater Anglia of the additional expenses, and is this clearly for a journey from Kings Cross to Liverpool Street?

 

[AlterEgo]

Where did you buy your ticket? Did you purchase this with the destination of “London Terminals” or specifically to Liverpool Street? If you purchased the ticket to “London Terminals” or indeed just “London” without specifying any specific destination it would be hard to argue that they’ve not fulfilled the contract of getting you to London.

What evidence have you provided Greater Anglia of the additional expenses, and is this clearly for a journey from Kings Cross to Liverpool Street?

Upon investigation, the ticket is issued to “London Terminals”: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=SSD&dest=LST&grpd=1072&tkt=SOS

There is a question as to whether the train company has discharged its duty to the passenger by delivering him to a London Terminal, as written on the ticket.

 

[rbannocks]

Are you out of pocket £1.55?

If GA repaid the full value of the ticket AND Thameslink accepted the ticket for travel (ie no new ticket was purchased) then the actual cost of the journey incurred was £1.55 - which is less than the price of the original ticket purchased from GA.

To answer the various questions:

The ticket said London Terminals. If I make this journey again I will try to buy to Liverpool Street, but, I do not believe this is possible on the ticket machines. That would be and interesting question. I did enter London Liverpool Street as the destination on the ticket machine, but, on inspection the ticket says London Terminals so I am unclear how important that is as I specified Liverpool Street when purchasing and paying for the ticket.

There was no ticket inspection at Kings Cross and I was with a train load of other passengers also coming from Stanstead via Cambridge. The train terminated at the main station not the Thameslink station.

 

[AlterEgo]

Did you ask rail staff to endorse your ticket or provide transport to Liverpool Street?

 

[rbannocks]

Did you ask rail staff to endorse your ticket or provide transport to Liverpool Street?

No I did not know that that was a possibility. In any case I believe the ticket office was closed and there were few if any staff around.

 

[WesternLancer]

To answer the various questions:

The ticket said London Terminals. If I make this journey again I will try to buy to Liverpool Street, but, I do not believe this is possible on the ticket machines. That would be and interesting question. I did enter London Liverpool Street as the destination on the ticket machine, but, on inspection the ticket says London Terminals so I am unclear how important that is as I specified Liverpool Street when purchasing and paying for the ticket.

There was no ticket inspection at Kings Cross and I was with a train load of other passengers also coming from Stanstead via Cambridge. The train terminated at the main station not the Thameslink station.

I would be mindful of the fact that a ticket to London Terminals is better 'value' (in my view) in the sense that it affords you more flexibility in the event of problems, than a ticket to London Liverpool Street only would do. I would value that but I fully appreciate that you may take a different view for any number of legit reasons. Both destinations seem to be in the fares database but for the same price - so a ticket machine may not offer both as you suggest was the case.

My hunch is you won't get far on this one but you could engage with their customer services about it further. Will cost them more than £1.55 to answer you, not that that will result in you getting £1.55 back necessarily (tho perhaps you might get a good will gesture to save them dealing with more letters from you! So it may be worth asking them for that in those terms or otherwise they are just administering a delay claim, which they regard as settled).

No average person would know this but I suspect you would have been required, before boarding the train, to have contact the train company (somehow) and asked their 'control office' to arrange onward ticket permission (presumably with Transport for London) to get people to Liverpool Street from Kings Cross. But whilst you waited for that I fear that last trains of the night would have gone and you would have been out of pocket more than the £1.55....

 

[rbannocks]

I would be mindful of the fact that a ticket to London Terminals is better 'value' (in my view) in the sense that it affords you more flexibility in the event of problems, than a ticket to London Liverpool Street only would do. I would value that but I fully appreciate that you may take a different view for any number of legit reasons. Both destinations seem to be in the fares database but for the same price - so a ticket machine may not offer both as you suggest was the case.

My hunch is you won't get far on this one but you could engage with their customer services about it further. Will cost them more than £1.55 to answer you, not that that will result in you getting £1.55 back necessarily (tho perhaps you might get a good will gesture to save them dealing with more letters from you! So it may be worth asking them for that in those terms or otherwise they are just administering a delay claim, which they regard as settled).

No average person would know this but I suspect you would have been required, before boarding the train, to have contact the train company (somehow) and asked their 'control office' to arrange onward ticket permission (presumably with Transport for London) to get people to Liverpool Street from Kings Cross. But whilst you waited for that I fear that last trains of the night would have gone and you would have been out of pocket more than the £1.55....

I have no idea what the legit reasons would be. It seems to me that if again my destination is Liverpool Street then it would be better to get the specifics down on the ticket then the train company have no wriggle room. As you indicate GA would have had to spend hours on the stuff I would have thrown at them if they did not do as you indicate and side step the issue. They have as you indicate given a goodwill payment.

As to your last paragraph if "no average person" or perhaps the "man on the clapham omnibus" knew that "you would have been required, before boarding the train, to have contact the train company (somehow) and asked their 'control office' to arrange onward ticket permission (presumably with Transport for London) to get people to Liverpool Street from Kings Cross" which seems patently absurd and in any case no train company would provide details of their "control office" (likely to be open 9-5) then the law cannot have an expectation that citizens do this. What GA should have done is arrange ticket acceptance, but they did not do this.

Irrespective I think the attitude portrayed in the GA's reply stinks. But the issue raised here is now resolved.

 

[WesternLancer]

I have no idea what the legit reasons would be. It seems to me that if again my destination is Liverpool Street then it would be better to get the specifics down on the ticket then the train company have no wriggle room. As you indicate GA would have had to spend hours on the stuff I would have thrown at them if they did not do as you indicate and side step the issue. They have as you indicate given a goodwill payment.

As to your last paragraph if "no average person" or perhaps the "man on the clapham omnibus" knew that "you would have been required, before boarding the train, to have contact the train company (somehow) and asked their 'control office' to arrange onward ticket permission (presumably with Transport for London) to get people to Liverpool Street from Kings Cross" which seems patently absurd and in any case no train company would provide details of their "control office" (likely to be open 9-5) then the law cannot have an expectation that citizens do this. What GA should have done is arrange ticket acceptance, but they did not do this.

Irrespective I think the attitude portrayed in the GA's reply stinks. But the issue raised here is now resolved.

I'm glad it's resolved. I'm not posting here to excuse the bonkers UK railway, I'm trying to explain it. What you then do is up to you of course.

A 'legit reason' is that if you tell a person face to face in that scenario that they are going to going to court they might punch you / spit at you etc etc. That, from their point of view, is a legit reason to imply at the time in question that nothing that serious will happen.

Not sure if you have ever worked in the sort of job where that can happen, but I would have thought that was obvious. Apols if not.
Edit - point not applicable to this thread.

I think other advice to you in future might be for you to take your custom to another transport operator. Bus or car perhaps.

 

[rbannocks]

I'm glad it's resolved. I'm not posting here to excuse the bonkers UK railway, I'm trying to explain it. What you then do is up to you of course.

A 'legit reason' is that if you tell a person face to face in that scenario that they are going to going to court they might punch you / spit at you etc etc. That, from their point of view, is a legit reason to imply at the time in question that nothing that serious will happen.

Not sure if you have ever worked in the sort of job where that can happen, but I would have thought that was obvious. Apols if not.

I think other advice to you in future might be for you to take your custom to another transport operator. Bus or car perhaps.

Yes and probably worse. I have worked in the job centre in Hackney (before it was gentrified - a couple of decades ago). So I know all about it.

 

[Starmill]

As others have said technically it was up to Greater Anglia to cover the cost of the trip from wherever you were to be diverted to following disruption to your scheduled destination - in this case, London Liverpool Street. Usually this would be done by an alternative rail service, ticket acceptance with an alternative transport provider, or in a company taxi. If none of these options are available for whatever reason, it's reasonable to do as you did, paying for the service yourself and asking Greater Anglia to cover the cost. If they refused initially to do so it's likely as a result of misunderstanding. It is also possible that they just don't like paying for things they're obliged to pay for. Who knows.

 

[AlterEgo]

Does a passenger without an itinerary have the right to be conveyed to a specific London Terminal?

 

[Haywain]

As far as I am aware, a ticket from Stansted Airport to London Terminals is only normally valid to Liverpool Street. However, for many people there will be some element of onward travel required no matter which station you arrive at so being specific about the station isn't relevant to them.

 

[SickyNicky]

As far as I am aware, a ticket from Stansted Airport to London Terminals is only normally valid to Liverpool Street. However, for many people there will be some element of onward travel required no matter which station you arrive at so being specific about the station isn't relevant to them.

It's technically possible to use a London Terminals ticket to Kings Cross, but it would be a convoluted journey involving changing at Stratford, Highbury and Islington and Finsbury Park.
It wouldn't be valid via Cambridge though.

 

[30907]

What GA should have done is arrange ticket acceptance, but they did not do this.

I am inclined to agree, and it is a line you could pursue - assuming that your journey by public transport was to Liverpool Street and no further.

Irrespective I think the attitude portrayed in the GA's reply stinks.

They have stated that delay repay compensation is limited to 100% of the ticket's value. I don't think that's at all unfair, given that it is a compensation for inconvenience not a payment to cover consequential loss - which in your case would have been £1.55 instead of £19-odd.

 

[D400.50050]

Once you reached King's Cross, what bus did you take?

 

[Starmill]

I am inclined to agree, and it is a line you could pursue - assuming that your journey by public transport was to Liverpool Street and no further.

They have stated that delay repay compensation is limited to 100% of the ticket's value. I don't think that's at all unfair, given that it is a compensation for inconvenience not a payment to cover consequential loss - which in your case would have been £1.55 instead of £19-odd.

There's nothing to actually say that claims for compensation as a result of delays is limited to the price of tickets though. It is just that if you wish to make Delay Repay application to get it, for speed and convenience, this is how it will be applied.

 

[rbannocks]

There's nothing to actually say that claims for compensation as a result of delays is limited to the price of tickets though. It is just that if you wish to make Delay Repay application to get it, for speed and convenience, this is how it will be applied.

Actually I just wrote in with a complaint nad included ticket pic and claim for ticket and bus fare. They have interpreted this as a delay repay. That is their problem they wont get the money back. I also asked for turther compensation for the up set of being moved between platform 2 times with 50kg of luggage and no help. Once I get the 1.55 I will chase them up on that.

 

[GadgetMan]

Actually I just wrote in with a complaint nad included ticket pic and claim for ticket and bus fare. They have interpreted this as a delay repay. That is their problem they wont get the money back. I also asked for turther compensation for the up set of being moved between platform 2 times with 50kg of luggage and no help. Once I get the 1.55 I will chase them up on that.

Did you buy a train ticket or set for life lottery ticket?

 

[trenopendo]

Ask for a letter of deadlock and take them to the Rail Ombudsman.

That will show them

 

[WesternLancer]

Ask for a letter of deadlock and take them to the Rail Ombudsman.

That will show them

Yes, worth taking it to the Ombudsman eventually.

 

[AlterEgo]

The Ombudsman will just say the OP was delivered to a London Terminal and that’ll be that. Waste of time, unless you want to set regulatory precedent for this sort of thing.

 

[WesternLancer]

The Ombudsman will just say the OP was delivered to a London Terminal and that’ll be that. Waste of time, unless you want to set regulatory precedent for this sort of thing.

sshhh....

 

[AlterEgo]

Some things are better left ambiguous.

The OP wants compensation for “upset” at changing platform twice with two heavy bags (even though he had not flown into Stansted, so where these bags come from is a mystery), and one pound fifty five pence for a bus fare he spent having not even asked staff if there was acceptance. One assumes he walked home from Liverpool Street and there was no onwards connection he’d have had to pay for anyway.

Sounds like a time wasting complaint to me which deserves the minimum level of effort to resolve.