Horrendous jump in Elizabeth line PAYG fares at the zone 6 boundary

[miklcct]

I am looking at some Elizabeth line fares and find that, once the journey leave the zone 6 boundary, the fare jump is horrendous that, one stop extra can nearly double the fare.

The following are the relevant adult rate PAYG fares:

West Drayton - Harold Wood: £5.50 / £3.50 (normal TfL rate 1-6 fare)

Iver - Harold Wood: £11.20 / £7.50 (that single stop doubles the fare across the whole London!)

Iver - Brentwood: £20.30 / £13.70 (that single stop nearly doubles the fare again - just that 2 stops extra nearly quadrupled the 1-6 fare!)

The total fare Iver - Brentwood, touching out and in at Hayes & Harlington and also Romford instead: £11.10 / £8.30

Why is there such a massive anomaly at the zone 6 boundary for the PAYG fares? I'd be shocked if I didn't check the fare beforehand and saw more than £20 charged from my card for such journey for just two stops more than my usual one at £5.50.

 

[MikeWh]

Beyond zone 6 the fares are usually set by the operator concerned. With Iver that is GWR, even though the service is now only EL. The main reason for the fare jump there is that the West Drayton to Paddington fares are set the same as the Underground. Although Brentwood fares are set by TfL, the agreement with the DfT when they took over was that they wouldn't cut the fares significantly and thus cause problems for the rest of the Anglia lines.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

This can happen when travelling across PTE (Passenger Transport Executive) boundaries..

For example...

Wigan NW/Wallgate to Greenfield (journey of 30 miles) = £7.10 (Off Peak Day Return)

Wigan NW/Wallgate to Marsden (Yorks) (next stop, an extra 6 miles) = £36.50 (Off Peak Day Return).

 

[JonathanH]

There is an issue whereby TfL (and indeed ATOC) have set fares for Zone 6 to Zone 6 at the same price as for Zone 6 to Zone 1.

Once you go outside Zone 6 on either side, that pricing isn't sustainable, hence the jump in fares.

If a correction is to be made, it will be to increase the Zone 6 to Zone 6 fares, not the outer fares, but that probably isn't politically acceptable.

 

[geoffk]

This can happen when travelling across PTE (Passenger Transport Executive) boundaries..

For example...

Wigan NW/Wallgate to Greenfield (journey of 30 miles) = £7.10 (Off Peak Day Return)

Wigan NW/Wallgate to Marsden (Yorks) (next stop, an extra 6 miles) = £36.50 (Off Peak Day Return).

Crumbs. An extreme example of the "tunnel tax". I'd book to Greenfield then get the 184 bus over the top.

 

[Class800]

Crumbs. An extreme example of the "tunnel tax". I'd book to Greenfield then get the 184 bus over the top.

Does split ticketing help?

 

[hkstudent]

This can happen when travelling across PTE (Passenger Transport Executive) boundaries..

For example...

Wigan NW/Wallgate to Greenfield (journey of 30 miles) = £7.10 (Off Peak Day Return)

Wigan NW/Wallgate to Marsden (Yorks) (next stop, an extra 6 miles) = £36.50 (Off Peak Day Return).

Because for most PTE and TfL have zonal fare system and count the smallest and largest zones, instead of counting of number of zones crossed for fare charging purposes (like in Continental Europe). This make border - border journeys exceptionally cheap.

 

[miklcct]

Because for most PTE and TfL have zonal fare system and count the smallest and largest zones, instead of counting of number of zones crossed for fare charging purposes (like in Continental Europe). This make border - border journeys exceptionally cheap.

In the continental system, the fare difference of a "via zone 1" and the "avoiding zone 1" fare is even larger. For example, a 3-2-1-2-3 journey crossed 5 zones, while an orbital zone 3 only journey only crosses a single zone.

The result of adopting this in London will probably be overcrowding on the orbital lines, or even the buses running between lines (since a 4-3-2-3-4 journey will be counted as crossing 5 zones with no orbital railway in zone 4), the exact opposite of what happens today.

 

[RJ]

There is an issue whereby TfL (and indeed ATOC) have set fares for Zone 6 to Zone 6 at the same price as for Zone 6 to Zone 1.

Once you go outside Zone 6 on either side, that pricing isn't sustainable, hence the jump in fares.

If a correction is to be made, it will be to increase the Zone 6 to Zone 6 fares, not the outer fares, but that probably isn't politically acceptable.

It cuts both ways. There are numerous scenarios where people buying tickets within the zones pay a heavy levy for doing so vs buying from a station outside the zones.

 

[JonathanH]

It cuts both ways. There are numerous scenarios where people buying tickets within the zones pay a heavy levy for doing so vs buying from a station outside the zones.

Yes, although that usually applies mainly to railcard holders.

 

[RJ]

Yes, although that usually applies mainly to railcard holders.

The things I’m thinking of aren’t dependent on holding a railcard!

 

[TUC]

Crumbs. An extreme example of the "tunnel tax". I'd book to Greenfield then get the 184 bus over the top.

Or just get a split ticket. An Off-Peak Day Return from Greenfield to Marsden is £6.80, rather less than the £29.40 extra for the through fare.

 

[matt_world2004]

Presumably the fare differential would ha e been larger if the existing fare structure had been retained beyond the greater london boundary when tfl took over these lines

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Does split ticketing help?

Or just get a split ticket. An Off-Peak Day Return from Greenfield to Marsden is £6.80, rather less than the £29.40 extra for the through fare.

Presume for that to work, the train would then also have had to call at Greenfield. (To be fair, almost all trains from the Manchester side calling at Marsden will have just called at Greenfield).

Are there any similar work-arounds for journeys crossing the London zone 6 boundary?

 

[Horizon22]

I know for West Drayton / Iver a lot of people drive or even bus (irregular as it is) to West Drayton as it’s so much cheaper and also gets a slightly better frequency (GWR stop there for now).

 

[matt_world2004]

I know for West Drayton / Iver a lot of people drive or even bus (irregular as it is) to West Drayton as it’s so much cheaper and also gets a slightly better frequency (GWR stop there for now).

Wouldn't Hayes be a better driving point from Iver due to the extra 4 tph it gets.

 

[miklcct]

Beyond zone 6 the fares are usually set by the operator concerned. With Iver that is GWR, even though the service is now only EL. The main reason for the fare jump there is that the West Drayton to Paddington fares are set the same as the Underground. Although Brentwood fares are set by TfL, the agreement with the DfT when they took over was that they wouldn't cut the fares significantly and thus cause problems for the rest of the Anglia lines.

The practice on other lines is that, the relevant local operator sets fares for the whole line except the end-to-end journey itself where the faster long-distance operator sets the fare. For example, Elizabeth line sets the fare from London until Brentwood, and from Stratford until Shenfield, while the London-Shenfield fare is set by Greater Anglia. Similar for Euston-Watford Junction as well where the end-to-end fare is by LNR and all the intermediate fares, as far as South Hampstead - Watford Junction and London - Watford High Street, is by London Overground.

Using the same reasoning, London - Twyford (not via Reading) and also Acton Main Line - Reading (not via London) should be set by Elizabeth line instead of GWR as Elizabeth line is the dominant operator on the route. GWR should have no business in Iver - Brentwood, the example I have given, as the only reasonable way to travel after through service begins is all the way by Elizabeth line.

 

[PeterC]

In the continental system, the fare difference of a "via zone 1" and the "avoiding zone 1" fare is even larger. For example, a 3-2-1-2-3 journey crossed 5 zones, while an orbital zone 3 only journey only crosses a single zone.

The result of adopting this in London will probably be overcrowding on the orbital lines, or even the buses running between lines (since a 4-3-2-3-4 journey will be counted as crossing 5 zones with no orbital railway in zone 4), the exact opposite of what happens today.

Could first generation Oyster cards be made to work like that?

I can't see an Amersham to Canary Wharf commuter doubling back from Finchley Road Road to West Hampstead and trundling round to Stratford on the Overground.

 

[miklcct]

I can't see an Amersham to Canary Wharf commuter doubling back from Finchley Road Road to West Hampstead and trundling round to Stratford on the Overground.

I can see an Elstree & Borehamwood to Canary Wharf commuter getting off the train at West Hampstead to take the Overground to Stratford if the fare difference continues to increase.

Taking the things to the extreme, commuters from the South West to Stratford will then change onto the Overground en-masse to reach Stratford instead of travelling through Waterloo and Jubilee line, and those requiring Canary Wharf will use the South London line to Canada Water instead of Jubilee line.

The Overground will soon be overloaded with people avoiding zone 1 like plague, forcing a reversion in the fare policy.

 

[hkstudent]

The practice on other lines is that, the relevant local operator sets fares for the whole line except the end-to-end journey itself where the faster long-distance operator sets the fare. For example, Elizabeth line sets the fare from London until Brentwood, and from Stratford until Shenfield, while the London-Shenfield fare is set by Greater Anglia. Similar for Euston-Watford Junction as well where the end-to-end fare is by LNR and all the intermediate fares, as far as South Hampstead - Watford Junction and London - Watford High Street, is by London Overground.

Using the same reasoning, London - Twyford (not via Reading) and also Acton Main Line - Reading (not via London) should be set by Elizabeth line instead of GWR as Elizabeth line is the dominant operator on the route. GWR should have no business in Iver - Brentwood, the example I have given, as the only reasonable way to travel after through service begins is all the way by Elizabeth line.

TfL has set a lower fare through the contactless PAYG system, and has not bothered to set the paper ticket fares. And meanwhile, it is highly likely that there are pressures from DfT not to undercut the fares too much, to maintain the profitability of the Elizabeth Line western section.