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How could a SE - NW XC service work?

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YourMum666

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Was just looking at a rail map the other day; and something just came to mind, how in theory could a SE - NW XC route work (completely avoiding London) and giving the kent coast a link to the north west without having to go through London?
 
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Horizon22

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Was just looking at a rail map the other day; and something just came to mind, how in theory could a SE - NW XC route work (completely avoiding London) and giving the kent coast a link to the west without having to go through London .

How "South East" are we talking? Without going through London (such as Thameslink or West London line), you'd be going through Reading most likely, which is where XC already serves Basingstoke & Southampton.

So really you're talking about going [NORTH WEST] - Reading - Gatwick/Redhill - Tonbridge - Ashford if routing could be found.

Not sure it would be very effective or quick. Avoiding London seems somewhat unecessary and quite the barrier to a proper XC service. There was an old service from Brighton via Guilford and Reading but that was over 15 years ago now.
 

PGAT

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It would have to utilise the North Downs line + Redhill-Tonbridge line as there really aren't any other routes leaving Kent that don't go towards London (except for the Marshlink linking with the South Coast, but I presume it is not very helpful when trying to go the North)
 

JonathanH

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Going via Tonbridge, Redhill and Reading then up to Coventry is so uncompetitive time wise as to be completely pointless.
 

cle

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We have a thread on Tonbridge-Ashford, but the broader context of that route (certainly to Redhill, straight and fast) being underutilized.

But previous services to Ramsgate and so forth, from Cross Country - used to go to/from Kensington Olympia direct to Bromley South (about 25 mins) - didn't call at Clapham. And I remember many going directly to Watford Junction, and WCML, instead of via Reading. All manner of combinations, even some Newhaven and Dover.


Since these quirky, charming days - frequency on many routes, but notably orbital ones (WLL, ELL) which are needed for routes like this, are all 4tph+ and freight hasn't gone away... Catford Loop, Herne Hill, they're all much busier so I don't think it would be easy to plug these weird and wonderful services into our boring, yet far more reliable clockface world.
 

GRALISTAIR

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There used to be (1980s), and I took it once or twice, a Brighton-Manchester service. OK not quite truly south east but close. Went via Kensington Olympia so again, not quite a true bypass of London.
 

Mcr Warrior

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There used to be (1980s), and I took it once or twice, a Brighton-Manchester service. OK not quite truly south east but close. Went via Kensington Olympia so again, not quite a true bypass of London.
Think a variation of the above lasted until late 2008. Typically, in the later years, before it was discontinued, the station calls were Brighton, Haywards Heath, Gatwick Airport, East Croydon, Kensington Olympia, Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Congleton, Macclesfield, Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly.

Some of these Brighton->Manchester Piccadilly XC trains were, however, routed via Redhill/Guildford between Gatwick Airport and Reading, and so didn't then call at Kensington Olympia. (Not sure if it did call at Guildford).
 

JonathanH

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I know that the WCML, if not other lines as well, is too congested for it to happen, but would any rolling stock (395s?) be suitable for a Manchester – South Hampstead – North London line – High Speed 1 service? I'd guess Ashford to Birmingham in under two hours would be possible that way.

https://signal.eu.org/osm/#locs=51.143420,0.875103;52.477660,-1.898852
All very well, but the North London Line Connection isn't suitable for any rolling stock without some signalling work.

North Wembley Junction appears to be 1 hour 10 minutes from Birmingham, on a train that has called at Birmingham International and Coventry.
North Wembley Junction to Camden Road East Junction is about 35 minutes on a freight train
St Pancras International to Ashford International is 38 minutes.

So, probably getting on for two and a half hours.

Seems a shame it can't be done via Ripple Lane Exchange Sidings either.
 
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Energy

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Is there much point? St Pancras - Euston is a 10 minute walk and going via London is going to be far more frequent.
 

JonathanH

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Is there much point? St Pancras - Euston is a 10 minute walk and going via London is going to be far more frequent.
No, no point at all, which is why there aren't any such services running. As you say, there are multiple connections each hour with a walk between St Pancras and Euston (although not bring able to use Dangoor Walk at the moment is a slight nuisance).
 

Horizon22

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Is there much point? St Pancras - Euston is a 10 minute walk and going via London is going to be far more frequent.

The only thing would be making this connection easier and less awkward than a walk down the busy Euston Rd. I know there's a signposted link round the back streets, but some sort of underground "travelator" which has been mooted before would help connectivity. Highly unlikely to happen in reality.
 

A S Leib

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The only thing would be making this connection easier and less awkward than a walk down the busy Euston Rd. I know there's a signposted link round the back streets, but some sort of underground "travelator" which has been mooted before would help connectivity. Highly unlikely to happen in reality.
Crossrail 2's mothballing probably makes it less likely.
 

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I could see definite value in another rail tunnel near dartford, connecting north Kent to Essex to relieve dartford crossing. This would be instead of lower thames crossing. I see that as more cross river/estuary traffic but perhaps a limited service could make sense to for further afield.

People from Manchester might want to visit digger land in Medway or ramsgate leisure centre.
 

JonathanH

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People from Manchester might want to visit digger land in Medway or ramsgate leisure centre.
There are plenty of equivalent venues in the North, including a Diggerland near Castleford.

I could see definite value in another rail tunnel near dartford, connecting north Kent to Essex to relieve dartford crossing.
The proposal for a cross river tram didn't receive much support, as has been discussed before.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/kent-essex-tram-kenex-tram.212532/
 

Alfonso

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Ages ago I travelled Canterbury East to Liverpool direct. Outward train set off south east from Canterbury to Dover then Folkestone, ashford, Tonbridge, Kensington olympia. Return was slightly faster...Kensington, Bromley, Chatham, faversham route. Took ages and I'm sure very few people went the whole way. As others have stated, post HS1, channel tunnel, low cost flights and much more intensive use of many lines, demand would be minimal and paths non existant
 

The exile

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Ages ago I travelled Canterbury East to Liverpool direct. Outward train set off south east from Canterbury to Dover then Folkestone, ashford, Tonbridge, Kensington olympia. Return was slightly faster...Kensington, Bromley, Chatham, faversham route. Took ages and I'm sure very few people went the whole way. As others have stated, post HS1, channel tunnel, low cost flights and much more intensive use of many lines, demand would be minimal and paths non existant
I think the powers that be soon discovered that demand was minimal back then as well. My return from my first ever solo trip abroad was via the Dover WD - (?) Liverpool - but only because SNCF had caused me to miss a ferry connection (arriving at Calais behind 4 BB67000s, 3 of which were dead!). Don’t remember there being any difficulty about getting a bay of four to myself!
 

Topological

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There are plenty of equivalent venues in the North, including a Diggerland near Castleford.


The proposal for a cross river tram didn't receive much support, as has been discussed before.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/kent-essex-tram-kenex-tram.212532/
Perfect, a diggerland connection that allows people to visit both.

Usefully, diggers are used in the building of the connection under the Thames so there would be a chance to host the diggers used at each diggerland.

Where London sits within a reasonable geographic route between two places then it is unlikely you will ever beat the London connection. (Note that this is not the same as "as the crow flies", because for many reasons those routes do not have railway lines on them. Even Brighton to Birmingham works better through London.
 
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We have a thread on Tonbridge-Ashford, but the broader context of that route (certainly to Redhill, straight and fast) being underutilized.

But previous services to Ramsgate and so forth, from Cross Country - used to go to/from Kensington Olympia direct to Bromley South (about 25 mins) - didn't call at Clapham. And I remember many going directly to Watford Junction, and WCML, instead of via Reading. All manner of combinations, even some Newhaven and Dover.


Since these quirky, charming days - frequency on many routes, but notably orbital ones (WLL, ELL) which are needed for routes like this, are all 4tph+ and freight hasn't gone away... Catford Loop, Herne Hill, they're all much busier so I don't think it would be easy to plug these weird and wonderful services into our boring, yet far more reliable clockface world.
There was plenty of services to Brighton and Portsmouth to the north west/east but never realised there was trains to Bromley and beyond.
 

miklcct

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Was just looking at a rail map the other day; and something just came to mind, how in theory could a SE - NW XC route work (completely avoiding London) and giving the kent coast a link to the north west without having to go through London?
What do you mean by avoiding London. Does using West London Line count by avoiding London which happened in the past with the Brighton XC service going through East Croydon and Kensington Olympia?
 

JonathanH

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There was plenty of services to Brighton and Portsmouth to the north west/east but never realised there was trains to Bromley and beyond.
As pointed out in previous threads, the website http://1s76.com/ is a useful resource on what did run.

WELCOME to 1S76.com the rise and fall of cross country train services to and from Brighton.

INTRODUCTION:

May 1979 saw the re-introduction of through services from the Midlands to the Sussex Coast and brought daily locomotive haulage back to Brighton to break up the solid diet of EMU’s. The services have served various destinations over the years before the DfT and Arriva killed them off in December 2008.



I retired from the rail industry a few years ago, so hopefully I'll have enough spare time to get the site up to date and make a start on the long promised pages for the West Country services...........still waiting!


I hope this will be more than just a potted history of those workings from the twice daily start back in 1979 through the optimism of four trains a day in 1986, the often forgotten six trains a day in 2002 and Virgin Trains proposal for an hourly service, ending with the rather half – hearted service that remained at the end.

As they were closely related the Cross Country services to Dover, Folkestone and Ramsgate from 1986 are also included.

If you are able to fill in any gaps or correct any errors supply photos or anything else please don’t hesitate to let me know, email address at the bottom of the page.
 
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cle

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There was also Eastbourne and Newhaven. Times have changed a lot - mainly the demise of ferries but also the English seaside (both track back to the same thing).

Interestingly, a longer term plan for the Reading area showed XC as the following per hour:
Manchester - Bournemouth
Newcastle - Southampton
Cambridge (I think) - EWR - Reading - Portsmouth (via Guildford)

so a South Coast return could nominally happen.
 

SynthD

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The Planner

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Those are both useful, but miss out another key factor, the current services and the congestion they cause. Is there a map of all NR declared congested areas, and other hotspots? Many of these proposals go through Croydon or Lewisham, which might be on the map I'm thinking of.

Its in the management of congested infrastructure section, there are only three locations currently. Castlefield, Ledburn Camden and Wrexham Bidston.
 

A S Leib

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I'm sure XC services went to Ramsgate during Summer 1998. Went via Bromley though.
They did go to Ramsgate according to a map from 1998 on Project Mapping.

On a side-note, when were Liverpool – Wigan services stopped (at the same time as Manchester – Scotland went to TPE?), and when did Virgin start serving Northampton, even just once a day for route knowledge?
 

Magdalia

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This discussion shows how it worked in the 1950s.

 
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