How could the current GA stock shortage be resolved in the short term?

[TubeMapCentral]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/greater-anglia-rolling-stock-updates.143516/

I'm not disagreeing that people should be held accountable.

But that won't fix it

OK, what is my budget, i.e. how much can NSRail be fined for turning the franchise into a shambles?

Are there MK3-based emus off-lease that can easily be put into service?

Are there diesel locomotives with high route availability available such as 37s?

I would be looking at a solution along the lines of

Bustitution of Marks Tey to Sudbury and Ipswich to Felixsowe services, at frequencies of every 30 minutes, and possibly Lowestoft to Norwich too (connecting into Great Yarmouth services at an intermediate station if possible).

Converting electrified services to MU operation assuming off-lease equipment similar to 321s is available

Remaining diesel services operated by Loco-hauled MK3 coaches top-and-tailed or new Stadler units, grouping by kind on Ipswich vs Norwich depending on what works best logistically

As new units come onlline, prioritising debustituting services when this can be achieved reliably, followed by gradual reinstatement of loco-hauled electric sevices

 

[trebor79]

OK, what is my budget, i.e. how much can NSRail be fined for turning the franchise into a shambles?

Are there MK3-based emus off-lease that can easily be put into service?

Are there diesel locomotives with high route availability available such as 37s?

I would be looking at a solution along the lines of

Bustitution of Marks Tey to Sudbury and Ipswich to Felixsowe services, at frequencies of every 30 minutes, and possibly Lowestoft to Norwich too (connecting into Great Yarmouth services at an intermediate station if possible).

Converting electrified services to MU operation assuming off-lease equipment similar to 321s is available

Remaining diesel services operated by Loco-hauled MK3 coaches top-and-tailed or new Stadler units, grouping by kind on Ipswich vs Norwich depending on what works best logistically

As new units come onlline, prioritising debustituting services when this can be achieved reliably, followed by gradual reinstatement of loco-hauled electric sevices

Err, it would be far simpler to just keep the Mk3s and class 90s on the GEML. They aren't going to another franchise.
Loco hauled stock will not work on many of the routes because they can't run at sprinter speeds. So the timetable doesn't work.
Let alone issues of training etc.

 

[ashkeba]

Are there MK3-based emus off-lease that can easily be put into service?

I think there are 19 DfT-owned 4-car Class 365 Happy Trains off-lease at the moment. They used to operate 2-hour Kings Cross to Kings Lynn so would be comfortable enough for any GEML service at a push even though not InterCity class. Could make 6 12-car sets and a spare from that.

The difficult problem is DMUs, with Pacers and some Sprinters being outlaws from new year. So the obvious gap-fill would be Diesel-hauled Mk3s until the regional Flirts all work but are there enough available and can they work all lines?

Because of the DMU shortage, I understand why NS is prioritising the regional Flirts even though I would like to see StanEx Flirts running!

 

[TheEdge]

I think there are 19 DfT-owned 4-car Class 365 Happy Trains off-lease at the moment. They used to operate 2-hour Kings Cross to Kings Lynn so would be comfortable enough for any GEML service at a push even though not InterCity class. Could make 6 12-car sets and a spare from that.

Brilliant solution. Excepting the fact you'd need to stop all driver training on Flirts to train drivers on 365s, equip depots with equipment and staff to service 365s and carefully diagram the 365s to make sure they avoid crews who can't drive them. Other than that an easy solution.

 

[ashkeba]

Brilliant solution. Excepting the fact you'd need to stop all driver training on Flirts to train drivers on 365s, equip depots with equipment and staff to service 365s and carefully diagram the 365s to make sure they avoid crews who can't drive them. Other than that an easy solution.

Do 365s not share things with the 379s that Ilford already maintain?

Point taken about driver training but is that not the same with Mk3 EMUs? Not many Mk3 EMUs look to be off-lease soon.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Do 365s not share things with the 379s that Ilford already maintain?

Totally different units.

 

[AC47461]

At least the 365s wouldn't be far away from their original home depot (if it was Hornsey...), so servicing there wouldn't be out of the realms of possibility. Scotrail managed to get some in at a reasonably short notice so it can't be impossible. There must have been some overlap of training on the Hitachi units too, but I suppose as they weren't really in service it wasn't so much of an issue.

 

[dk1]

Do 365s not share things with the 379s that Ilford already maintain?

I would hardly think so.

 

[ashkeba]

Totally different units.

Except for the Electrostar/Turbostar units being based on the Networkers and both using alloy bodies and versions of BREL T/P3 bogies?

Anyway, as mentioned, Hornsey still maintains some 365s. It looks possible if things get bad enough. More than many other disaster recovery ideas. Let us hope the Stadlers come good soon instead, though.

 

[43074]

Except for the Electrostar/Turbostar units being based on the Networkers and both using alloy bodies and versions of BREL T/P3 bogies?

Anyway, as mentioned, Hornsey still maintains some 365s. It looks possible if things get bad enough. More than many other disaster recovery ideas. Let us hope the Stadlers come good soon instead, though.

Not really, Hornsey is full of the Great Northern units and the 19 off lease 365s might not be as available as it might seem.

Plus computer and electrical technology moved on significantly between the 1995 built 365s and the 2011 379s, they couldn't be more different.

 

[HLE]

Some on here need to get real. There's little if any chance GA will take on anything that they haven't got, or had recently. Route clearance would need to take place. Not a 5 minute job. Training programmes would need writing from scratch and agreeing with the union for a start. Not a 5 minute job. Then you've got all the issues TheEdge highlights above. Not a 5 minute job. Then by doing that you've took resource away from getting the flirts into service as soon as possible.

 

[ashkeba]

Some on here need to get real. There's little if any chance GA will take on anything that they haven't got, or had recently. Route clearance would need to take place. Not a 5 minute job. Training programmes would need writing from scratch and agreeing with the union for a start. Not a 5 minute job. Then you've got all the issues TheEdge highlights above. Not a 5 minute job. Then by doing that you've took resource away from getting the flirts into service as soon as possible.

A) We have real but the question was asked in #3088. No one is expecting GA to do anything except plod on with the Flirts and the Aventras and lots of spin.

B) Surely any EMUs would be for depots who will soon lose many of theirs and currently have no replacing Aventras in sight. It would be using resources of the missing Aventras not the flirts.

 

[Railperf]

A) We have real but the question was asked in #3088. No one is expecting GA to do anything except plod on with the Flirts and the Aventras and lots of spin.

B) Surely any EMUs would be for depots who will soon lose many of theirs and currently have no replacing Aventras in sight. It would be using resources of the missing Aventras not the flirts.

Has driver training started at Colchester yet or Liverpool St for the 745/755's?

 

[LAX54]

Some on here need to get real. There's little if any chance GA will take on anything that they haven't got, or had recently. Route clearance would need to take place. Not a 5 minute job. Training programmes would need writing from scratch and agreeing with the union for a start. Not a 5 minute job. Then you've got all the issues TheEdge highlights above. Not a 5 minute job. Then by doing that you've took resource away from getting the flirts into service as soon as possible.

379s are route cleared for Norwich, but you will still have the issue of crew knowlwdge, which I imagine is zero right now

 

[grumblingalong]

379s are route cleared for Norwich, but you will still have the issue of crew knowlwdge, which I imagine is zero right now

You're right, bar a few ex West Anglia drivers now on the Anglia side, there is absolutely no-one at GA with knowledge of both the route and traction.

 

[trebor79]

379s are route cleared for Norwich, but you will still have the issue of crew knowlwdge, which I imagine is zero right now

You're right, bar a few ex West Anglia drivers now on the Anglia side, there is absolutely no-one at GA with knowledge of both the route and traction.

And more to the point, why would they do that given there's no pressing deadline to get rid if the old stock (PRM derogation aside). If they hadn't stopped maintaining the fleet, there wouldn't really be a problem on the GEML at present.

 

[TubeMapCentral]

Err, it would be far simpler to just keep the Mk3s and class 90s on the GEML. They aren't going to another franchise.
Loco hauled stock will not work on many of the routes because they can't run at sprinter speeds. So the timetable doesn't work.
Let alone issues of training etc.

Um, when you don't have any serviceable trains, the timetables don't work even worse!

 

[ashkeba]

given there's no pressing deadline to get rid if the old stock (PRM derogation aside).

What do you mean? PRMs can be ignored? Or should be?

 

[trebor79]

No, I mean the Mk3s are destined for either cold storage or the scrappie. The DMUs had to go as they were going to other TOCs.
Given their will be a derogation for PRM, if only the Mk3s had been maintained rather than withdrawn when exams became due, the GEML wouldn't be in such a mess as it is at present.

 

[ashkeba]

So far from the above it looks like no one can think of alternative DMUs possible if the regional flirts do not all enter service soon?

 

[eastdyke]

So far from the above it looks like no one can think of alternative DMUs possible if the regional flirts do not all enter service soon?

That is because there are no alternative DMUs possible.

GA has to keep on doing what it is doing, ie getting the 755s into revenue earning service soonest (they have more than enough around Norwich to run the current timetable). The trains are wonderful - bring in the trains.

The fact that they have encountered delays for whatever reason, be it depot issues, essential modification to units, commissioning units, crew training, route/station clearance etc etc. is down to GA and their chosen suppliers. The 'sensibly planned' transfer away of the legacy stock did in the event not match their ability to intoduce the new units. And it could get worse if new units are not introduced at least at the rate of the 156s leaving to EMR [happening this month].

I think that GA are believing their own spin with respect to damage 'caused by animals' (etc etc). That seems to be the only thing between GA and breach of the FA* right now.
Oh to be a fly on the wall!

* Daily Operating Obligations
The Franchisee agrees to use all reasonable endeavours to operate on each day of the Franchise Term each of its Passenger Services as are set out in the Plan of the Day for that day and with at least the Passenger Carrying Capacity specified in the Train Plan for that Passenger Service. The Franchisee shall notify the Secretary of State as soon as reasonably practicable if it has on any day of the Franchise Term failed to operate to a material extent each of its Passenger Services as are set out in the Plan of the Day for that day and with at least the Passenger Carrying Capacity specified in the Train Plan for that Passenger Service.

 

[pompeyfan]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/greater-anglia-rolling-stock-updates.143516/

Edit: Don’t worry about it

 

[MatthewRead]

I've suggested they take back some of the 170's from Transport For Wales as people liked them best and they move back once the 755's settle down.

 

[ashkeba]

I've suggested they take back some of the 170's from Transport For Wales as people liked them best and they move back once the 755's settle down.

At what price? Basically SNCF and Ferrovial won't bail out NS Rail for free!

Also I'm mystified by the love for those overheated sardine cans that lack opening windows that most sprinters have.

 

[43096]

I've suggested they take back some of the 170's from Transport For Wales as people liked them best and they move back once the 755's settle down.

You are making a very big assumption that TfW would agree. Why would they? They have their own stock issues which the 170s are part of the solution to.