How many more intermodal terminals do we need?

[mwmbwls]

Business plan for M1-A6 road link dubbed 'reckless' by independent councillor | Luton Today
Luton Today features a report that long suggested rail freight interchange next to junction11A (North Luton/Dunstable) on the M1 could be built. This would be in addition to the long standing proposal by Helioslough for a freight terminal south of St.Albans. How many new freight terminals do we need in the United Kingdom- let alone along the MML?

 

[D6130]

I understand that plans have also been submitted to North Lanarkshire council for a new freight terminal at Ravenscraig near Motherwell.

 

[HSTEd]

How many more unpopular schemes do we need to propose spoiling alternatives to?

 

[The Planner]

There are loads being developed in the background. If a third party thinks there is money to be made then they will propose them.

 

[SynthD]

How would you like to define what is enough of them? Some of them may be replacing others that are life expired or on valuable city land.

 

[furnessvale]

There is any amount of freight on the roads. If someone thinks HIS bit of that roadfreight can go by rail instead, provided the rail capacity is available, you have got another terminal.

 

[Dr Hoo]

There is any amount of freight on the roads. If someone thinks HIS bit of that roadfreight can go by rail instead, provided the rail capacity is available, you have got another terminal.

Quite!

This issue has to be seen from the perspective of massive modal shift for freight (especially consumer goods as opposed to bulk) in the absence of any practicable 'battery long distance HGV'.

Electrification of all through routes by 2050 can go hand in hand with gauge clearance for containers and swap-bodies.

Plenty of significant urban areas, e.g. Plymouth, Swansea, Stoke, Newcastle, Edinburgh and Dundee, don't currently have meaningful rail-served depots for general goods.

 

[Bald Rick]

Business plan for M1-A6 road link dubbed 'reckless' by independent councillor | Luton Today
Luton Today features a report that long suggested rail freight interchange next to junction11A (North Luton/Dunstable) on the M1 could be built. This would be in addition to the long standing proposal by Helioslough for a freight terminal south of St.Albans. How many new freight terminals do we need in the United Kingdom- let alone along the MML?

That’s been proposed for a long time now, and will see just as many intermodal trains as the Radlett site will.

 

[HSTEd]

Quite!

This issue has to be seen from the perspective of massive modal shift for freight (especially consumer goods as opposed to bulk) in the absence of any practicable 'battery long distance HGV'.

Electrification of all through routes by 2050 can go hand in hand with gauge clearance for containers and swap-bodies.

Plenty of significant urban areas, e.g. Plymouth, Swansea, Stoke, Newcastle, Edinburgh and Dundee, don't currently have meaningful rail-served depots for general goods.

Who is going to pay for all this?

Also, even if eHighway goes nowhere and no battery system is available, petroleum consumption by HGVs was only half that of aviation.

If we can have synthetic fuels for aviation we can certainly have them for HGVs.

 

[Taunton]

Anyone who wants an HGV road vehicle terminal now has to greenwash the plans to say it is for road/rail transfer. This is to get them planning permission. They might even get a siding laid. There's nothing to say there then has to be any rail service actually operated.

The architect's drawings also have to show staff arriving there on bicycles, with bike stands at the front door. This is despite them being way out in the country where all will arrive by car.

 

[edwin_m]

Anyone who wants an HGV road vehicle terminal now has to greenwash the plans to say it is for road/rail transfer. This is to get them planning permission. They might even get a siding laid. There's nothing to say there then has to be any rail service actually operated.

The architect's drawings also have to show staff arriving there on bicycles, with bike stands at the front door. This is despite them being way out in the country where all will arrive by car.

But at least it means there is a range of terminals out there should a potential tenant want to move goods by rail. Given that the planning system can't mandate how a future tenant moves their goods, that's probably the best we're going to get. But it would be a good idea if those responsible for granting permission got an informed opinion on whether there are limitations of capacity, structure gauge or anything else that would prevent the rail connection ever being used.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Who is going to pay for all this?

Also, even if eHighway goes nowhere and no battery system is available, petroleum consumption by HGVs was only half that of aviation.

If we can have synthetic fuels for aviation we can certainly have them for HGVs.

There seems to be broad acceptance (at least on these boards) that 'the government(s)' will have to pay for rail electrification (at least to significant cities) by 2050.

It seems to me to make little sense to electrify passenger services but with no scope to use the traction supply for freight. The lack of suitable terminals (with meaningful access for electric traction) is a key factor in this.

Over the years there have been various forms of financial support for rail freight including terminals, rolling stock and revenue top-up. Even under Margaret Thatcher BR was funded to extend electrification to Trafford Park intermodal terminal in 1980 and Coatbridge in 1981 so it's not exactly a new idea.

For all the suspicion about new rail-connected terminals being a 'planning ploy' it is very evident that several new well-positioned terminals, e.g. on Teesside, East Midlands (Derby/Nottingham) and Doncaster iPort have 'taken off' in rail usage terms remarkably quickly. Sorry, Telford, you were always a bit of a long shot.

 

[edwin_m]

It seems to me to make little sense to electrify passenger services but with no scope to use the traction supply for freight. The lack of suitable terminals (with meaningful access for electric traction) is a key factor in this.

There remains the question of final access to the container loading tracks by electric trains. Several options exist:

• Last mile diesel or battery power - probably the way this will go in future?
• Run round and propel into loading tracks - I believe Tilbury has/had this but not sure if ever used as such. Needs a lot of extra space.
• Provide a self-powered shunting locomotive and sidings to park it and the electric - probably only viable for a larger terminal like Daventry
• Just coast in - I don't think anywhere does this as a shunting loco would probably also be needed in case of getting stranded (and run-round would be difficult)

 

[L Brightwell]

There are many new intermodal terminals on the Government's and Network Rail's agenda. We have seen significant intermodal growth over the last decade with new terminals such as East Midlands Gateway and Doncaster iPort which have only been open for no more than 4 years. There is a lot that comes to freight. I understand of a few new intermodal ports/terminals that have been proposed:

Luton
Etwall (Derbyshire)
Four Ashes (near Wolverhampton)
Hinckley (Leicestershire)

We need to remove bottlenecks across the country as well to not only accommodate this extra freight, but passenger services as well which HS2, Midlands Engine Rail etc. will all certainly help.

 

[AM9]

How would you like to define what is enough of them? Some of them may be replacing others that are life expired or on valuable city land.

If 'valuable city land' was an issue, the Helioslough scheme wouldn't stand a chance, it's in the St Albans district where an area the size of Radlett Aerodrome is either way too expensive for tin sheds or too protected to allow green belt to be trashed.

 

[HSTEd]

There remains the question of final access to the container loading tracks by electric trains. Several options exist:

• Last mile diesel or battery power - probably the way this will go in future?
• Run round and propel into loading tracks - I believe Tilbury has/had this but not sure if ever used as such. Needs a lot of extra space.
• Provide a self-powered shunting locomotive and sidings to park it and the electric - probably only viable for a larger terminal like Daventry
• Just coast in - I don't think anywhere does this as a shunting loco would probably also be needed in case of getting stranded (and run-round would be difficult)

I suppose there is also a fifth option, which is, build some sort of FEMU that can keep one of it's driving cabs, and attached pantograph, under wire throughout the operation.

 

[popeter45]

There remains the question of final access to the container loading tracks by electric trains. Several options exist:

• Last mile diesel or battery power - probably the way this will go in future?
• Run round and propel into loading tracks - I believe Tilbury has/had this but not sure if ever used as such. Needs a lot of extra space.
• Provide a self-powered shunting locomotive and sidings to park it and the electric - probably only viable for a larger terminal like Daventry
• Just coast in - I don't think anywhere does this as a shunting loco would probably also be needed in case of getting stranded (and run-round would be difficult)

there are many other options as well such as:
alternitive power connections (e.g. offset pantographs,third rail with extra safety systems, shore supply etc)
movable OHLE
side loading containers

most other counties just use diesel shunters atm so i suspect this will be a issue that many nations will need to solve at the same time

 

[doorhanger93]

I suppose there is also a fifth option, which is, build some sort of FEMU that can keep one of it's driving cabs, and attached pantograph, under wire throughout the operation.

Seems the Japanese already actually did this with the M250, although I think shunters acting as tugboats would probably work fine.

 

[furnessvale]

A battery-electric shunter would be ideal for larger terminals. It could stand under the wires for a top up between jobs

Smaller terminals unable to justify a shunter would be best laid out for propelling into the terminal tracks.

 

[doorhanger93]

Smaller terminals unable to justify a shunter would be best laid out for propelling into the terminal tracks.

How small would a terminal have to be not to justify a single shunter, actually?
It seems the simplest option.

 

[ac6000cw]

A battery-electric shunter would be ideal for larger terminals. It could stand under the wires for a top up between jobs

I think it just needs batteries and a shore supply to recharge it e.g. a high-power EV charger - using OHLE means adding pantograph/HV breaker/transformer etc. which will just add cost (both initial and maintenance). It'll spend a lot of the day idle, so keep it simple...

An off-the-wall thought - at simple terminals e.g. one track with concrete loading pad alongside, I wonder if you could use a modified loaded container lift-truck with a pole connection to the train for low speed shunting moves? The data sheet for this one - https://www.kalmarglobal.com/equipm...ainer-handlers/loaded-container-handlers-DCF/ - lists a drawbar pulling capacity of around 300kN (twice the tractive effort of an 08 shunter) and it weighs around 70 tonnes. Pretty substantial machines, and you'd need something like that to load & unload the containers anyway.

 

[furnessvale]

How small would a terminal have to be not to justify a single shunter, actually?
It seems the simplest option.

Something like Highland Spring at Blackford maybe?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Apr 2021 ==

I think it just needs batteries and a shore supply to recharge it e.g. a high-power EV charger - using OHLE means adding pantograph/HV breaker/transformer etc. which will just add cost (both initial and maintenance). It'll spend a lot of the day idle, so keep it simple...

An off-the-wall thought - at simple terminals e.g. one track with concrete loading pad alongside, I wonder if you could use a modified loaded container lift-truck with a pole connection to the train for low speed shunting moves? The data sheet for this one - https://www.kalmarglobal.com/equipm...ainer-handlers/loaded-container-handlers-DCF/ - lists a drawbar pulling capacity of around 300kN (twice the tractive effort of an 08 shunter) and it weighs around 70 tonnes. Pretty substantial machines, and you'd need something like that to load & unload the containers anyway.

We are talking about terminals which are already served by OHLE routes, only the terminal itself is not wired for operational reasons. I would envisage the battery loco running under the wires, perhaps a wired headshunt, for a recharge.

 

[doorhanger93]

Something like Highland Spring at Blackford maybe?

Even they were considering getting a diesel shunter if the line got electrified, as per this piece: https://www.multimodal.org.uk/article/highland-spring-has-bottle-invest-rail-freight

Though I wonder how hard it'd be for smaller sites to just have a loader/crane like this,

The data sheet for this one - https://www.kalmarglobal.com/equipm...ainer-handlers/loaded-container-handlers-DCF/

Modified so it can simply remove containers sideways and just work under the wires.

 

[muddythefish]

Can there ever be enough terminals?

Aside from the fact that large cities and towns within the UK have no freight facilities, and virtually none in the south west (why are there no intermodal services to Devon and Cornwall?), even within well served counties such as Northants there must be scope for more terminals as anyone who has seen the massive increase in the number of warehouses in the Corby and Kettering area would testify.

 

[ac6000cw]

Modified so it can simply remove containers sideways and just work under the wires.

Can you actually lift a container from the side? - I assume they are designed to lifted vertically, the stresses would be different if you tried to lift from the side.

They have to be lifted far enough to clear the retaining spigots on the wagon, and I doubt you would be allowed to do that under live OHLE.

We are talking about terminals which are already served by OHLE routes, only the terminal itself is not wired for operational reasons. I would envisage the battery loco running under the wires, perhaps a wired headshunt, for a recharge.

Yes, I know - just because there is OHLE nearby doesn't mean it's automatically the cheapest/easiest way of recharging the battery powered shunter (which could be a cab-less radio-controlled unit, operated by the person on the ground doing train coupling/uncoupling, who then switches to operating the mobile container lift crane to do the train/truck transfers).

 

[edwin_m]

Can you actually lift a container from the side? - I assume they are designed to lifted vertically, the stresses would be different if you tried to lift from the side.

They have to be lifted far enough to clear the retaining spigots on the wagon, and I doubt you would be allowed to do that under live OHLE.


Yes, I know - just because there is OHLE nearby doesn't mean it's automatically the cheapest/easiest way of recharging the battery powered shunter (which could be a cab-less radio-controlled unit, operated by the person on the ground doing train coupling/uncoupling, who then switches to operating the mobile container lift crane to do the train/truck transfers).

There are truck-mounted handlers with arms that reach out from the side of the truck at each end, but they pick the container up by the top in the same way as normal.

 

[furnessvale]

Even they were considering getting a diesel shunter if the line got electrified, as per this piece: https://www.multimodal.org.uk/article/highland-spring-has-bottle-invest-rail-freight

Yes, the obvious solution for any site is an approriately sized diesel shunter, probably something secondhand and cheap. However, perhaps mistakenly, I thought the discussion had moved on to a time when ANY diesel power was banned and other options had to be used.

 

[HSTEd]

(why are there no intermodal services to Devon and Cornwall?)

The simple reason is that not many peopel actually live there.
The population of all of Devonwall is well under 2 million

 

[doorhanger93]

Yes, the obvious solution for any site is an approriately sized diesel shunter, probably something secondhand and cheap. However, perhaps mistakenly, I thought the discussion had moved on to a time when ANY diesel power was banned and other options had to be used.

That's probably slightly overcomplicating it given that this isn't a "total decarb" thread, but I figured a battery shunter wouldn't be too much harder to justify than a diesel. You could probably get some sort of subsidy or investment for a zero emissions worksite, who knows.

 

[Bald Rick]

That's probably slightly overcomplicating it given that this isn't a "total decarb" thread, but I figured a battery shunter wouldn't be too much harder to justify than a diesel. You could probably get some sort of subsidy or investment for a zero emissions worksite, who knows.

There’s no subsidy, but you don’t need it. Battery hybrid shunters are cheaper to operate than diesel only shunters. There are some in service now in this country (with Tata steel), and more on order for other operators, including a few for Mossend.