How often do rail replacement buses depart early?

[infobleep]

How often do rail replacement buses depart early?

I am at Farncombe with a friend and today the rail replacement buses are hourly at x32. We got here 5 minutes before the bus should depart as that is when I purchased a train ticket.

So far two buses have gone in the opposite direction and it's 25 minutes after our bus should have departed at 23:32.

I did see a bus go past earlier as we walked to the station so no idea if that was our bus running early. Two buses have pulled up here going in the opposite direction. One to Godalming and another to Haslemere.

My friend is going to Dorking and at this rate I can see him being put in a taxi as he will miss the last train to Dorking. Alternatively he can stay at mine but no way should he buy a new ticket tomorrow.

Delay repay will be due of course. My friend was an hour late getting to Fancombe owing to the Great Western Railway service being 20 minutes late and thus missing the hourly connection from Guildford to Farncombe.

So likely they will get all of their tickets costs back from two different train operating companies.

 

[RJ]

Truth is they can be a law unto themselves at any station other than those where there is supervision. Some drivers will wait time, but some don’t.

If the bus hasn’t turned up then try reaching control via the station help point for assistance.

 

[infobleep]

Truth is they can be a law unto themselves at any station other than those where there is supervision. Some drivers will wait time, but some don’t.

If the bus hasn’t turned up then try reaching control via the station help point for assistance.

Thanka for the reply. First of all of tried Twitter. No response. They eventually repliyed but that was after I'd trying other methods.

Then I tried the station help point. Eventually someone answered but whilst talking to them we got cut off. No idea why.

In the main time 2 other guys were getting a taxi to Guildford and kindly offered to having us join them at no cost.

There are kind people out there. They were just off to continue partying in Guildford.

So we did that. Once in Guildford, I got hold of the station supervisor, or to be exact another member of staff did on our behalf, and my friend was put in a taxi to Dorking at South Western Railway's expense.

So it ended well but ideally shouldn't have got to this point.

I once missed a bus from Gidalming that left early but i got a lift back from the orgnsisers of the event I attended, a ceilidh.

I've even had a bus leave early from Guildford and that was with a supervisor present. I was pushing it time wise in this case but was there not long before the bus should leave, so technically I was their in time.

 

[boiledbeans2]

Quoted from one of my older posts in https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-the-term-rail-replacement-bus-is-viewed.263715/post-6669386

Anyway, my RRB advice is try to board at the origin or large stations. If your station is unstaffed and in the middle of nowhere (e.g. along the New Guildford Line or North Downs Line), good luck. I've seen drivers depart early, stop at the wrong bus stop, or skip the stop completely because they got lost or forgot!

I remember once, a driver from Havant to Guildford skipped Godalming completely. He went direct Haslemere to Guildford. I didn't say anything, as the driver shortened my journey to Guildford.

 

[Joshua_Harman]

When doing rail replacement we’re always told it’s the same rules as a normal bus when it comes to the timetable. No more than 1 minute early from bus stops (apart from the starting stop). Unless the staff at the station tell you otherwise.

Before they have sent me away several minutes early but that’s because the next train was delayed and all the passengers were already off of the previous one.

 

[greyman42]

If the bus is waiting for a particular train and the train has arrived and everyone appears to be on the bus, then it is not unusual for the bus to then depart early.

 

[ExRes]

My last experience of RRBs was in 2010, every working night/early morning I had to get from St Pancras to London Bridge to get home due to the Thameslink work blocking the through south route, on regular occasions the RRB would drive straight past St Pancras without stopping to pick anyone up, the drivers couldn't give a damn, the so called LT liaison staff couldn't give a damn, nobody wanted to know and nobody wanted to do anything about it, why should they be interested about people being left without transport at 1am/2am/3am etc when they could hide across the road having a fag and a laugh?

 

[DelW]

I remember once, a driver from Havant to Guildford skipped Godalming completely. He went direct Haslemere to Guildford. I didn't say anything, as the driver shortened my journey to Guildford.

When the Portsmouth Direct is closed, there are often several different routes used by the RRBs. For instance, if the block is Guildford to Petersfield or Havant, the main buses go directly via the A3, which is almost entirely on fast dual carriageway. There are then smaller buses serving the intermediate stations via local roads. Some of those (e.g. Milford) need a bus which can turn round at the station and go back the way it came. Even Godalming is awkward for full size buses since the one way system was introduced on the approach roads last year.

 

[WelshBluebird]

As the first reply said - its basically pot luck. So I'd say very common!

If the bus is waiting for a particular train and the train has arrived and everyone appears to be on the bus, then it is not unusual for the bus to then depart early.

It's also sadly not uncommon for the opposite. For the incoming train to be a few mins late but the bus not wait for it and so leave on time but empty.

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

I remember turning up at Pevensey & Westham 5 minutes before the scheduled departure, to find out the bus had already left. I asked a man in a high vis jacket holding a clipboard why it had gone early and he said "because I sent it". I explained the situation (basically that I was going somewhere and this was going to mess up my entire day) and he told the driver of the next bus to leave early! Which helped me, but not the next poor sod who turned up to find the bus had left.

 

[Bovverboy]

It's also sadly not uncommon for the opposite. For the incoming train to be a few mins late but the bus not wait for it and so leave on time but empty.

I'm given to understand that for a train to be held to connect with a late-running RRB would be unusual.

 

[BazingaTribe]

I'm given to understand that for a train to be held to connect with a late-running RRB would be unusual.

I think they mean the opposite -- that the RRB that is continuing the route of the particular train is departing before that train actually arrives. Which is pretty absurd! And would definitely be a reason to complain.

The last time I used a RRB is during the pandemic was from Reading to Wokingham to get my vaccine (long story but I got mine early as a healthcare worker, and thus went to where my workplace was booked in rather than getting it locally where I live in Basingstoke). On the return journey I just hopped on an ordinary bus as I was too woozy to wait for the official RRB.

 

[RJ]

I'm given to understand that for a train to be held to connect with a late-running RRB would be unusual.

I think it might depend on what information is available. As a driver, if I’m on a particularly desolate route and the connection is looking dicey, I will phone control when stopped and it’s up to them, but they have been known to hold the train in these circumstances.

If nobody knows where the bus is then the train can’t wait indefinitely.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I've waited over an hour (4 buses (2 each way) not showing up) and then a bus going the wrong way showed up.
Apparently there were road works up the road and no buses were going to my station! Would've been nice of them to tell us!

Fortunately that double decker showed up, after waiting that long I just gave up on considering actual ticket restrictions and went the wrong way and down a different route, ending up on a crowded short form (2 instead of 4) 150.

Rail replacements should have to have tracking like real buses do.

 

[infobleep]

Quoted from one of my older posts in https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-the-term-rail-replacement-bus-is-viewed.263715/post-6669386



I remember once, a driver from Havant to Guildford skipped Godalming completely. He went direct Haslemere to Guildford. I didn't say anything, as the driver shortened my journey to Guildford.

I assume it was meant to stop in Godalming as on Saturdsy some buses were doing Havant, Petersfield, Haslemere and Guildford.

Godalming usually gets 3 trains an hour during the day on Saturdays but only had 1 rail replacement bus an hour, as the others skipped it.

I think it might depend on what information is available. As a driver, if I’m on a particularly desolate route and the connection is looking dicey, I will phone control when stopped and it’s up to them, but they have been known to hold the train in these circumstances.

If nobody knows where the bus is then the train can’t wait indefinitely.

I've come across situations where a bus doesn't show up at Guildford and no one can workout where it is. In this peritcular cases I was actually travelling an hour later so I wasn't affected.

Rail replacements should have to have tracking like real buses do.

That would be great.

 

[boiledbeans2]

I assume it was meant to stop in Godalming as on Saturdsy some buses were doing Havant, Petersfield, Haslemere and Guildford.

Godalming usually gets 3 trains an hour during the day on Saturdays but only had 1 rail replacement bus an hour, as the others skipped it.

Yeah, in my post, it was meant to stop at Godalming. I just took a look at RTT for the engineering works for last weekend (26 - 27 Oct). The bus patterns seemed to have changed.

Previously, all buses used to do Guildford - Havant, some fast, some semi-fast (which should stop at Godalming), and some all stops. Between Godalming and Haslemere, some drivers would take the A3 through Hindhead Tunnel, while others would take their large coach through the narrow and winding A286, even at night with no street lighting.

However, last weekend, the stopping services have been split at Petersfield. Godalming only gets 1 bph on the stopping service. So it seems the bus pattern has been changed recently.

 

[OrangeJuice]

I think they mean the opposite -- that the RRB that is continuing the route of the particular train is departing before that train actually arrives. Which is pretty absurd! And would definitely be a reason to complain.

I have had this coming back from Ely to Southampton where the XC bus to Stansted left Cambridge before the slightly delayed XC train arrived. The staff didn't seem to notice or care that it had left before the passengers for it had arrived!
Anyway I then went via Royston rather than waiting an hour and had half an hour there instead and just ended up later into Southampton.

 

[infobleep]

Yeah, in my post, it was meant to stop at Godalming. I just took a look at RTT for the engineering works for last weekend (26 - 27 Oct). The bus patterns seemed to have changed.

Previously, all buses used to do Guildford - Havant, some fast, some semi-fast (which should stop at Godalming), and some all stops. Between Godalming and Haslemere, some drivers would take the A3 through Hindhead Tunnel, while others would take their large coach through the narrow and winding A286, even at night with no street lighting.

However, last weekend, the stopping services have been split at Petersfield. Godalming only gets 1 bph on the stopping service. So it seems the bus pattern has been changed recently.

Interesting. I do think 1 bph is poor for somewhere that gets 3 trains an hour but appreciate bus supply isn't endless.

I'll stop drifting off topic.

 

[duncombec]

In this part of SouthEasternLand, Rail Replacement on the main line is often formed of pairs of regular double-deck service buses, and I have seen dispatchers allow one vehicle to leave slightly earlier, whilst the other waits until the specified time. This does seem to be particularly prevalent if there are multiple services due at a similar time in a restricted space (e.g. Strood or Rainham).

There does seem to be a disconnect, though, between what is expected and what actually happens:
- I've had to wait a scheduled 25 minutes for a bus on a half-hourly frequency, because the timetable revolved around the onward connection, not the arriving one.
- I've seen buses be dispatched almost totally empty just as a minimally delayed train arrives at the station, angering the arriving passengers and essentially being a waste of a bus.
- More than a decade ago now, the rail replacement bus I was on (and it's twin - see above) were held up by an accident that had happened shortly in front of us in an area where any side roads were definitely not 'decker friendly. After a rather hairy three-point turn in a farm track entrance, we hurtled back off in the opposite direction, 75% of the way back to the previous station, to go down the motorway and to reach our destination from the other side. Almost immediately the platform staff saw people arriving, they started blowing whistles and demanding people hurry up, really quite rudely. Mentioning this to the conductor after we set off, his response was along the lines of 'Given it's me who tells the driver when to go, they could blow their whistles all they liked; we weren't going anywhere until I was sure we had you all. I'll be raising it myself later'.!

Rail replacements should have to have tracking like real buses do.

I think the issue here would be threefold:
- Firstly, the vehicles would have to have ticket machines - whilst many buses do, only a small percentage of coaches and minibuses do.
- The data would have to be provided and uploaded by the rail companies.
- How would that connect with rail tracking systems, if necessary?

There is at least one company that has set up a 'fake' route for rail, largely for internal tracking purposes, but you'd have to know which company was operating your rail replacement bus to make use of it via bustimes in the "regular" way: https://bustimes.org/vehicles/nvtr-804-yx58-dvf?date=2024-10-13, map sample from another vehicle https://bustimes.org/vehicles/nvtr-809-yx58-dvl?date=2024-10-13#journeys/636773812.

Perhaps the best thing, assuming there isn't one already, would be for the operators and their rail replacement providers (both those arranging the operations and those providing oversight, where it isn't the arranger, but not necessarily the operators) should have a single set of standards to operate under? Or there be some sort of standards imposed, perhaps via NRCoT? So you could turn up at any station, anywhere in the country, and know, for example, that your bus would wait a maximum of X minutes for the train but no longer else the onward connection would fail, or likewise the train would wait Y minutes for a late bus. I'm sure other things could be considered - such as how to handle unstaffed/uncontrolled intermediate stops.

 

[BazingaTribe]

I think the issue here would be threefold:
- Firstly, the vehicles would have to have ticket machines - whilst many buses do, only a small percentage of coaches and minibuses do.
- The data would have to be provided and uploaded by the rail companies.
- How would that connect with rail tracking systems, if necessary?

Also if we're doing RRBs for a long distance Voyager service, coaches are far, far more comfortable than ordinary town buses (and friendly towards luggage needs as well...after being crammed on to a RRB between Weybridge and Woking it was just painful -- at least because of my obvious mobility issues -- a walking stick still has some advantages -- I was allowed to get on first and find the most comfortable seat, although it quickly became academic as people piled on almost on top of me.

Just like I dislike the way Elizabeth Line trains are configured for short hop Tube style journeys when travelling out of the city centre between e.g. Reading and Slough, even a Reading Buses single decker vehicle shuttling about along main roads like between Reading and Oxford would be uncomfortable. As I've got older, I've developed more propensity towards motion sickness and it's made me much more keenly aware about choosing where I sit and the company making the right choices of vehicle for the right route. I may still feel about 12 mentally but since I have the body of a 45 year old with neurological and physical handicaps these things start to matter.

It's not to the same degree as accessibility for wheelchairs etc (where actually a town bus might work better than a coach), but it takes someone for whom it makes a material difference to assess the variety of needs out there.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

There is at least one company that has set up a 'fake' route for rail, largely for internal tracking purposes,

Good on them for it, now everyone else needs to follow.

but you'd have to know which company was operating your rail replacement bus to make use of it via bustimes in the "regular" way: https://bustimes.org/vehicles/nvtr-804-yx58-dvf?date=2024-10-13, map sample from another vehicle https://bustimes.org/vehicles/nvtr-809-yx58-dvl?date=2024-10-13#journeys/636773812.

Would you? I would've thought most people use bustimes.org by just looking at the map, that's certainly how I use it.

 

[Trainguy34]

Annoyingly around here our RRBs don't track anywhere, meant I was stuck at the station for an hour as it left about 7-8 mins early (minor thought Station) and there was no way to tell.

 

[duncombec]

Good on them for it, now everyone else needs to follow.

Would you? I would've thought most people use bustimes.org by just looking at the map, that's certainly how I use it.

But how many rail users would think to use a website called bustimes.org to track a bus that's pretending to be a train, especially when a lot of non-enthusiast bus users I've come across haven't even heard of bustimes? (It not being nearly as widespread as, for example, National Rail Enquiries).

Also be generally cautious about assuming how you use it is how "most people" use it. There's been a massive outbreak of most-people-itis on some threads here recently, based entirely on symptoms of "what I does"!

But whilst it is good there are a few operators doing it for internal purposes, just saying "everyone else needs to follow" doesn't really handle the three issues I raised in my earlier reply. If your rail replacement bus is actually a touring coach... where does the ticket machine come from, let alone the data, and are you expecting Northern to tell you to use a third party website (which requires an internet connection) for a different mode of transport "because it's not actually a train"?

It would be interesting to hear from "those in the know" if it would even be possible to link whatever system the railway uses to track times (I want to say Darwin or Trust, but I've got no real idea what they actually are...) to a GPS -and-timetable-based system on a not-train?

 

[Trainguy34]

are you expecting Northern to tell you to use a third party website (which requires an internet connection)

If CrossCountry do it with RealTimeTrains so people can view the train formations then why can't Northern do something similar and arguably as, if not more, useful?

 

[duncombec]

If CrossCountry do it with RealTimeTrains so people can view the train formations then why can't Northern do something similar and arguably as, if not more, useful?

Because (as I understand it) that's railway data bring added to a railway system (and can also be incorrect), which real Time Trains then regurgitates in a publicly accessible fashion. You could just as easily ask why can't you track trains on bustimes because it would be useful to know where they were geographically as well as merely temporally away from your location.

I'm not disputing it's a nice thing to have and something to aspire to - just that there are issues combining the systems (as buses don't use train systems, and trains don't use bus systems) before you even consider how to explain that to even some regular, let alone irregular, public transport users.

As I said, I think there is a lot that could be done "manually" with a set of standards and expectations before considering the difficulties of trying to link the two for limited use.

 

[nr758123]

Truth is they can be a law unto themselves at any station other than those where there is supervision. Some drivers will wait time, but some don’t.

If it's a bus pretending to be a train, and passengers are relying on it, then it should not depart early. We had this during the Stalybridge blockade in March 2023. Buses were departing early from Slaithwaite, Marsden and Greenfield, with intending passengers being left stranded. Passengers did not know whether the bus was early, late or cancelled. The bus replacement operator congratulated themselves on what a good job they were doing.

It should stick to timings in the same way that a train would do.

If the bus hasn’t turned up then try reaching control via the station help point for assistance.

By the time I have done the 10 minute walk from the replacement bus stop to the help point on the station platform, the bus may have been and gone. Even if the help point and replacement bus stop are close to each other there's a risk of missing the late running bus.

Rail replacements should have to have tracking like real buses do.

Absolutely. This is basic customer service. It's not difficult.
Friends of mine who have teenage children have a simple app on their phone enabling them to locate their offspring in real time. If a teenager can be tracked so easily and at minimal cost, then so can a rail replacement bus. It cannot then be beyond the capability of the relevant train operating company to find a way of communicating that information with passengers using that new-fangled internet thing.

 

[Wolfie]

My last experience of RRBs was in 2010, every working night/early morning I had to get from St Pancras to London Bridge to get home due to the Thameslink work blocking the through south route, on regular occasions the RRB would drive straight past St Pancras without stopping to pick anyone up, the drivers couldn't give a damn, the so called LT liaison staff couldn't give a damn, nobody wanted to know and nobody wanted to do anything about it, why should they be interested about people being left without transport at 1am/2am/3am etc when they could hide across the road having a fag and a laugh?

Why would LT, if you mean TfL and it isn't a typo for TL, staff care about RRBs for a TOC they don't run? If you do mean TL that is poor.

My experience of RRBs is mainly but not exclusively C2C, LNWR/WMT (and in Shropshire TfW), and London Overground. There always seem to be numbers of staff out in the ground and active.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Even if the help point and replacement bus stop are close to each other there's a risk of missing the late running bus.

Agreed, in my experience, RRBs can show up from any direction at any time, and if you're not immediately there to get their attention, they'll drive right past.

 

[BazingaTribe]

At least at Basingstoke the pick-up/drop-off point is well labeled. They just cordon off the raised pedestrian pavement at the front and drive the buses there.

Pandemonium often ensues, but at least it's obvious...

 

[ExRes]

Why would LT, if you mean TfL and it isn't a typo for TL, staff care about RRBs for a TOC they don't run? If you do mean TL that is poor.

To be honest it's too long ago to remember who was supplying the 'service', I'm probably being lazy and showing my age by putting LT for London Transport, all I know was that they were red buses that blundered past those of us waiting