How to reinstate services from Southport to Manchester Piccadilly

[317 forever]

As I was travelling home from Southport yesterday, I gave some thought of how to reinstate through services to Manchester Piccadilly.

Trains terminating at Oxford Road could be extended to Hazel Grove, Alderley Edge via Stockport or Manchester Airport, stopping at all stations. In such cases, they would replace shuttles from Manchester Piccadilly, or cause the Liverpool Lime Street - Newton-Le-Willows service to be curtailed at Oxford Road.

The drawback with the Hazel Grove or Alderley Edge options would be the additional train on the congested section from Oxford Road to Piccadilly.

I notice that passengers from Piccadilly have 2 trains an hour to Blackpool North but none to Southport. So, potentially, 1 of those could divert to Southport and be supplemented by 1 shuttle an hour from Oxford Road to Blackpool North.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I notice that passengers from Piccadilly have 2 trains an hour to Blackpool North but none to Southport. So, potentially, 1 of those could divert to Southport and be supplemented by 1 shuttle an hour from Oxford Road to Blackpool North.

Or perhaps not, especially when many Blackpool services are 6 car and wouldn't fit in the bay at Oxford Road. There are several other reasons why it would be a bad idea as well.

 

[jfollows]

The Alderley Edge local services have only recently become reliable again, by starting them from the main station at Piccadilly. In the 2018 timetable they came from Southport and, essentially, I had no need of a timetable for them, turning up at an intermediate station at a random time would find one of them running 25 minutes late.
So it’s a case of deciding which is the lesser of two problems, I’d quite like an occasional through train from Oxford Road, especially if I’m not in a hurry, but having a reliable timetable is more important to me.

 

[The Planner]

As I was travelling home from Southport yesterday, I gave some thought of how to reinstate through services to Manchester Piccadilly.

Trains terminating at Oxford Road could be extended to Hazel Grove, Alderley Edge via Stockport or Manchester Airport, stopping at all stations. In such cases, they would replace shuttles from Manchester Piccadilly, or cause the Liverpool Lime Street - Newton-Le-Willows service to be curtailed at Oxford Road.

The drawback with the Hazel Grove or Alderley Edge options would be the additional train on the congested section from Oxford Road to Piccadilly.

I notice that passengers from Piccadilly have 2 trains an hour to Blackpool North but none to Southport. So, potentially, 1 of those could divert to Southport and be supplemented by 1 shuttle an hour from Oxford Road to Blackpool North.

They can't stop at all stations to the airport as it breaks the timetable. The TPE would catch up in both directions. It fits with a Hazel Grove on the up, but not the other way. You couldn't do Alderley Edge via Stockport either.

 

[jonnyfan]

I've always wondered if it would be possible to extend the Southport to Oxford Road service through to Stockport, just calling at Piccadilly on the way there, using the fast lines down to Stockport and into the bay platform 3A. Then the return would be on the slow lines, calling at Heaton Chapel, Levenshulme and Piccadilly. There's possibly a clear slot in both directions.

It also fills that 20 minute gap at Heaton Chapel & Levenshulme in the Manchester bound direction.

 

[hue166]

I've always wondered if it would be possible to extend the Southport to Oxford Road service through to Stockport, just calling at Piccadilly on the way there, using the fast lines down to Stockport and into the bay platform 3A. Then the return would be on the slow lines, calling at Heaton Chapel, Levenshulme and Piccadilly. There's possibly a clear slot in both directions.

It also fills that 20 minute gap at Heaton Chapel & Levenshulme in the Manchester bound direction.

That sounds the best option upto now. SPT 3A only sees one service a week that I can think of, the parliamentary service to SYB via RDS. I think there was, possibly still is a WGN from SPT in the evening on 3A

 

[RHolmes]

In such cases, they would replace shuttles from Manchester Piccadilly, or cause the Liverpool Lime Street - Newton-Le-Willows service to be curtailed at Oxford Road.

That would leave Liverpool with no direct service to the Airport at all, and there is a VERY strong demand for a direct service.

Liverpool trains also now run as 6 carriages on the busiest peak trains and can’t terminate on platforms 3 (due to signal positions) or 5 (due to length) at Oxford Road.

 

[Bertie the bus]

That sounds the best option upto now. SPT 3A only sees one service a week that I can think of, the parliamentary service to SYB via RDS. I think there was, possibly still is a WGN from SPT in the evening on 3A

The best option of those listed on this thread but still a poor one. All services on P13 at Piccadilly were deliberately sent to the airport so they wouldn't have to cross over several tracks at the station throat. This proposed new service would not only have to do that but also cross the Down Fast at Stockport, blocking the Up Fast if something was coming out of Stockport. The proposed return working also wouldn't work as it would get in the way of the Chester - Piccadilly service on the slow line.

All that for what? To save a handful of people travelling to Piccadilly 9 minutes on their journey

 

[43096]

As I was travelling home from Southport yesterday, I gave some thought of how to reinstate through services to Manchester Piccadilly.

Trains terminating at Oxford Road could be extended to Hazel Grove, Alderley Edge via Stockport or Manchester Airport, stopping at all stations. In such cases, they would replace shuttles from Manchester Piccadilly, or cause the Liverpool Lime Street - Newton-Le-Willows service to be curtailed at Oxford Road.

The drawback with the Hazel Grove or Alderley Edge options would be the additional train on the congested section from Oxford Road to Piccadilly.

I notice that passengers from Piccadilly have 2 trains an hour to Blackpool North but none to Southport. So, potentially, 1 of those could divert to Southport and be supplemented by 1 shuttle an hour from Oxford Road to Blackpool North.

You are unaware, then, of all the issues caused on the Deansgate corridor by trying to run too many trains through there a few years back? Putting services back in is only going to lead in one direction.

 

[cle]

I don't think Southport needs services to Piccadilly explicitly at all. And certainly not at the expense of Liverpool.

If something got to Oxford Road, that is helpful in terms of the onward connectivity from Piccadilly (eastwards / southwards - to Stockport and Sheffield - and Airport) - but Victoria covers Huddersfield / Leeds / York better...

Anyone who wanted London or Birmingham (or Scotland) would be much better off changing at Wigan. Or travelling into Liverpool.

Nowhere else I can imagine has enough demand to really think about.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyone who wanted London or Birmingham (or Scotland) would be much better off changing at Wigan. Or travelling into Liverpool.

Debatable for London. The 3tph means lower fares and more options from Manchester.

 

[Zomboid]

Birmingham has two XC per hour from Piccadilly too, as opposed to one Avanti from Wigan.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Debatable for London. The 3tph means lower fares and more options from Manchester.

Birmingham has two XC per hour from Piccadilly too, as opposed to one Avanti from Wigan.

You are both talking about absolutely tiny numbers of people. When you have a railway as congested as around Manchester Piccadilly you don't plan services for people who want to save a few quid by changing trains in Manchester instead of Wigan.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

There are three main flows to consider.

Firstly is commuting to the south side of the city centre. The Oxford Road terminator is good enough for the overwhelming majority.

Secondly is airport traffic. Passengers with luggage very much appreciated the former through service. The trick now for these passengers is to ensure reasonable connections which can either be at Salford Crescent or Bolton. Not every timetable has achieved this with extended waits having been necessary. Getting this right makes a lot of complaints go away.

Thirdly is connecting traffic. For a long while this was predominantly via Piccadilly but the return of trans-Pennine North services to Victoria has reduced the urgency here. The key remaining connection is to/from the Norwich service (for Sheffield/East Midlands etc) although as mentioned for London the frequency from Manchester means it is very often cheaper this way than what might appear to be more obvious routeings via Wigan or Liverpool.

It should also be remembered that while talk here refers to Southport in practice that is simply where some trains get turned round. The actual demand only builds up from Burscough eastwards and the real volume starts at Wigan. There is also the long established practice of concentrating Windsor Link services on the Chorley route leaving both routes to Wigan at a disadvantage. Hence the need to get connections right.

 

[Zomboid]

You are both talking about absolutely tiny numbers of people. When you have a railway as congested as around Manchester Piccadilly you don't plan services for people who want to save a few quid by changing trains in Manchester instead of Wigan.

I'm sure the numbers are insignificant, but for that small number of passengers heading to Birmingham and London the better interchange is Piccadilly. Forcing the service all the way through for those people would be a tail wagging dog situation, though.

 

[cle]

You are both talking about absolutely tiny numbers of people. When you have a railway as congested as around Manchester Piccadilly you don't plan services for people who want to save a few quid by changing trains in Manchester instead of Wigan.

Agree. Southport is a rounding error - and really a nothing place, from a network POV. It has a crappy diesel stopper to Manchester that really it doesn’t warrant. Which also, takes forever. Horrible way to travel to London.

I would estimate 90% of usage is Merseyrail into Liverpool (which has comparable fares and would be a far quicker journey) - it’s lucky to have another line still.

Demand to Birmingham could be counted on two hands a day, imagine thinking they need 2tph to ponder! Drive to Preston and crack on.

 

[Djgr]

All that for what? To save a handful of people travelling to Piccadilly 9 minutes on their journey

You can walk from one station to the other in ten minutes!

 

[317 forever]

Further to post #9, I was not advocating an increase in services between Oxford Road and Piccadilly. I was looking at what else could be amalgamated or what other through services could be reduced.

Re post #7, I shall keep suggestions to those that maintain a through service from Liverpool to Manchester Airport.

What does seem excessive is having 2 trains an hour from Blackpool North to Manchester Airport, admittedly hard to amend due to some 6 car trains, and 2 trains an hour from Liverpool Lime Street to Sheffield, albeit different onward destinations.

Another idea is to curtail the Liverpool - Newton-Le-Willows - Oxford Road - Airport service at Oxford Road, extend the Southport - Oxford Road service to the Airport, curtail the Cleethorpes - Liverpool service at Piccadilly and introduce a new service Liverpool - Warrington Central - Piccadilly (semi-fast) - Airport (stopping at all stations). There would be no increase in trains between Oxford Road and Piccadilly. The reason I advocate splitting the Cleethorpes rather than the Nottingham/Norwich service is because of the TPE depot being in the Manchester area.

 

[dodecahedron67]

The fact of the matter is that Southport is less deserving of a through service to Piccadilly than any of the other options.

The Chat Moss stopper is a massive success story (see all 4/6car working now), the Blackpool - Airport is a long established service and there’s a reason it’s 2tph 4/6car, the Cleethorpes being sent through to Liverpool gives an even 2tph Liverpool-Sheffield and absent of Merseyrail/Metrolink conversion of the CLC is the only realistic option for that line to have the service level it does.

Southport is always going to be a fudge and a waste of a path if sent through Castlefield. It should be 2tph Stalybridge - Southport on an equal headway, with a good connection at Salford Crescent/Bolton onto a Blackpool - Airport or similar for those wanting Oxford Road/Picc

 

[amahy]

Purely looking at Northern's current fleet, it would be a waste of DMUs to extend Southport services any further south towards Piccadilly/Airport/Stockport/Hazel Grove/Alderley Edge, as this would just entail more DMUs running under wires, units which Northern quite simply do not have. In the future, I believe there is are early plans to extend Southport services to the Airport, once Northern's massive new train order is in service, but this is many years away.

 

[RHolmes]

Another idea is to curtail the Liverpool - Newton-Le-Willows - Oxford Road - Airport service at Oxford Road, extend the Southport - Oxford Road service to the Airport, curtail the Cleethorpes - Liverpool service at Piccadilly and introduce a new service Liverpool - Warrington Central - Piccadilly (semi-fast) - Airport (stopping at all stations). There would be no increase in trains between Oxford Road and Piccadilly. The reason I advocate splitting the Cleethorpes rather than the Nottingham/Norwich service is because of the TPE depot being in the Manchester area.

You can’t terminate 6 carriage services at Oxford Road except in emergency circumstances (where the train continues) so you can’t terminate the Chat Moss service there.

At this point of chopping and changing other much busier services surely it’s better to just leave things as they are and terminate the Southport service at Oxford Rd?

 

[317 forever]

You can’t terminate 6 carriage services at Oxford Road except in emergency circumstances (where the train continues) so you can’t terminate the Chat Moss service there.

At this point of chopping and changing other much busier services surely it’s better to just leave things as they are and terminate the Southport service at Oxford Rd?

It is indeed operationally simpler to leave things unchanged, as you suggest.

The point of the Speculative Discussion is to discuss potential changes including what we could change operationally.

 

[Peter0124]

Reducing Blackpool to Manchester reduces connectivity at Preston when travelling to/from further north (eg Scotland)

 

[Djgr]

It is indeed operationally simpler to leave things unchanged, as you suggest.

The point of the Speculative Discussion is to discuss potential changes including what we could change operationally.

The discussion so far is clearly of the view that making detrimental changes to far more deserving traffic flows, such as Liverpool and Preston, in order to benefit a small minority flow from Southport is inappropriate.

 

[Zomboid]

To me it seems like a simple set of routes running reasonably frequently is the way to create a robust service. So how about this:

The electric local services being
2tph Blackpool to Manchester Airport
2tph Wigan NW to Stalybridge via Bolton

Diesel trains can operate
2tph Southport to Oxford Road

Headbolt Lane should probably really be part of Merseyrail, but if not then they can go via Atherton and Victoria to I don't know where.

Blackburn/ Clitheroe etc need to be accommodated too, but I'm just crayoning here.

 

[BranstonJnc]

As I was travelling home from Southport yesterday, I gave some thought of how to reinstate through services to Manchester Piccadilly.

Trains terminating at Oxford Road could be extended to Hazel Grove, Alderley Edge via Stockport or Manchester Airport, stopping at all stations. In such cases, they would replace shuttles from Manchester Piccadilly, or cause the Liverpool Lime Street - Newton-Le-Willows service to be curtailed at Oxford Road.

The drawback with the Hazel Grove or Alderley Edge options would be the additional train on the congested section from Oxford Road to Piccadilly.

I notice that passengers from Piccadilly have 2 trains an hour to Blackpool North but none to Southport. So, potentially, 1 of those could divert to Southport and be supplemented by 1 shuttle an hour from Oxford Road to Blackpool North.

Don't do it. Instead, focus on a half-hourly service to Victoria via Bolton. Encourage interchange at Bolton or Salford Crescent in both directions for Piccadilly. Add a stop in at Salford Crescent on both the TPE and the Barrow / Windermere to Airport, making that Salford <> Oxford Road <> Piccadilly every 15 minutes.

 

[30907]

Another idea is to curtail the Liverpool - Newton-Le-Willows - Oxford Road - Airport service at Oxford Road, extend the Southport - Oxford Road service to the Airport, curtail the Cleethorpes - Liverpool service at Piccadilly and introduce a new service Liverpool - Warrington Central - Piccadilly (semi-fast) - Airport (stopping at all stations).

...which is similar to the pattern that used to exist (except that the Cleethorpes (in theory) reversed and went to the Airport.

 

[BranstonJnc]

...which is similar to the pattern that used to exist (except that the Cleethorpes (in theory) reversed and went to the Airport.

Quite frankly, Liverpool to Sheffield via Warrington Central, Piccadilly and Stockport, should be a regular, half-hourly service. It could very easily cross Slade Lane at the same time in both directions, to stop any major performance loss. Add in appropriate pathing slack on the approach to Castlefield from the Liverpool direction, and from Hazel Grove from the Sheffield direction, and it wouldn't be a massive loser.

It's also quite important for any and all through connectivity, like from Donny, Nottingham, the East and such.

Split the CLC stoppers, into a Liverpool - Warrington, and an Oxford Road - Warrington, and circulate the units out of the way via the carriage sidings at Central as required. These could both run half-hourly with minimal problems as well.

One service goes to Cleethorpes, one goes to Nottingham. Not Norwich.

 

[The Planner]

Quite frankly, Liverpool to Sheffield via Warrington Central, Piccadilly and Stockport, should be a regular, half-hourly service. It could very easily cross Slade Lane at the same time in both directions, to stop any major performance loss. Add in appropriate pathing slack on the approach to Castlefield from the Liverpool direction, and from Hazel Grove from the Sheffield direction, and it wouldn't be a massive loser.

It's also quite important for any and all through connectivity, like from Donny, Nottingham, the East and such.

Split the CLC stoppers, into a Liverpool - Warrington, and an Oxford Road - Warrington, and circulate the units out of the way via the carriage sidings at Central as required. These could both run half-hourly with minimal problems as well.

One service goes to Cleethorpes, one goes to Nottingham. Not Norwich.

That adds a fixed element to Slade Lane in both directions as well as Edgeley and Stockport in the down.

 

[BranstonJnc]

That adds a fixed element to Slade Lane in both directions as well as Edgeley and Stockport in the down.

As if it's not already a bit of a mess anyway at both Edgeley No. 1 and Slade Lane, and at Castlefield...