HS2 open access

[BayPaul]

I believe that one of the biggest constraints on HS2 capacity is the capacity of Euston Station and its throat. Looking at the plans for Old Oak Common (OOC) Station, with its 6 HS2 platforms, it occurred to me that it might be straightforward to terminate some trains here.

With good onward connections, but not being central London, it seems like an ideal location for an open access operator.

It could potentially use the (First) East Coast Trains /Ryanair budget model and an appropriate pricing structure to claim to be competing more with coaches and low cost air than the franchised operator in order to pass the revenue abstraction test, and so perhaps run otherwise directly competing services to Birmingham, Manchester or Leeds.

Alternatively it could run like the other open access companies to a new destination. Blackpool would seem to be an obvious choice for this. As with other operators, I would expect a stopping service, probably calling at Birmingham interchange, Crewe and Preston for maximum revenue, with the new destination of Blackpool being included mainly for approval purposes!

Obviously the service would need expensive new build high speed stock, so it would be quite a commitment for a new operator, but First thought it worthwhile for East Coast Trains. I wonder if second hand stock from abroad might be usable on captive services.

What are other people's ideas for this?
Are there any restrictions on open access on HS2?
Would it be possible for an open access operator to sneak in after Phase 1 when there are ample paths, and use up a path planned for Phase 2 (I hope not!)?

I don't think this has been brought up in detail elsewhere, apologies if I have missed it. Please can we avoid this being a debate on whether or not HS2 is a good thing, or whether it should only go as far as OOC!

 

[BayPaul]

Before anyone else mentions it, I can certainly imagine that HS2 will open up open access opportunities on the WCML as well.

 

[PeterC]

Before anyone else mentions it, I can certainly imagine that HS2 will open up open access opportunities on the WCML as well.

If anything more likely than on HS2 itself.

 

[BayPaul]

If anything more likely than on HS2 itself.

Oh definitely. But I think that the hs2 possibility is an interesting topic as well

 

[Bald Rick]

When Euston opens, there won’t be capacity to terminate trains at OOC in normal operation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will there be open access? I don't think it's a foregone conclusion. Once we are out of the EU we will not be obligated to have it, and to a fair extent it's abstractive and gets in the way.

 

[Bald Rick]

Will there be open access? I don't think it's a foregone conclusion. Once we are out of the EU we will not be obligated to have it, and to a fair extent it's abstractive and gets in the way.

If there are spare paths, then it is certainly a possibility. However, there won’t be spare paths!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If there are spare paths, then it is certainly a possibility. However, there won’t be spare paths!

More likely I'd think budget Open Access would end up on the classic lines, if there is any.

 

[The Planner]

I can't imagine an open access operator having the collateral to start a service on HS2 (irrespective of the difficulties of it all such as there are no spare paths), how many OAO have gone out to buy new stock from the start? Getting HS2 compatible stock would blow any idea out of the water. Taking into account the infrastructure as well, where would they go? all the major northern bases are covered and there are no intermediate flows you could really tap into.

 

[VT 390]

I don't think there will ever be an open access operator on HS2, at least on the core section out of London because there is not likely to be any paths available and if trains terminated at Old Oak Common it would probably introduce a higher chance for delays.
However once phase 2 opens I could see an open access (or other operators service) using HS2 for part of the journey if capacity on the existing lines is available such as a Bedford (or East West rail Oxford) to Leeds service using the existing line to the East Midlands Hub and then HS2 to Leeds (assuming there is a link between the 2 lines here). Routes like this which avoid London and do not duplicate other HS2 services seam like the more likely options for Open Access services if they were to happen at all.

 

[TheWalrus]

From looking at suggested service levels on HS2 last night, I can’t see any paths being available for anything else. I assume HS2 will be double opposed to quadruple track?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

From looking at suggested service levels on HS2 last night, I can’t see any paths being available for anything else. I assume HS2 will be double opposed to quadruple track?

Double track. I think more likely open access will be found on the WCML post hs2

 

[TheWalrus]

Double track. I think more likely open access will be found on the WCML post hs2

A lot more likely, plus with the GC Blackpool service going ahead next year.

 

[30907]

Will there be open access? I don't think it's a foregone conclusion. Once we are out of the EU we will not be obligated to have it, and to a fair extent it's abstractive and gets in the way.

Open Access has much more to do with Privatisation (UK version) than with the EU.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Open Access has much more to do with Privatisation (UK version) than with the EU.

yes very much so.I can’t see open access disappearing anytime soon

 

[Bletchleyite]

Open Access has much more to do with Privatisation (UK version) than with the EU.

Sort of. That's how it started, but now the EU mandates it to be allowed.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Sort of. That's how it started, but now the EU mandates it to be allowed.

The EU doesn't control it as, like almost all EU laws, we have had to be ability to be unenrolled from any given law/mandate put forward.

 

[Meerkat]

if they got a sniff of interest HS2 would just use the paths wouldn’t they? They would lose less money running marginal trains than having a competitor creaming off business.
That’s my only concern about fares - the DfT will fix the timetable on WCML to make sure there is no significant competition to HS2

 

[ThameslinkUser]

That’s my only concern about fares - the DfT will fix the timetable on WCML to make sure there is no significant competition to HS2

The entire point of HS2 is to get rid of the non-stop trains on the WCML. Any competition will be based on luxury, or price.

 

[Bletchleyite]

if they got a sniff of interest HS2 would just use the paths wouldn’t they? They would lose less money running marginal trains than having a competitor creaming off business.
That’s my only concern about fares - the DfT will fix the timetable on WCML to make sure there is no significant competition to HS2

No, the DfT will fix the timetable on the WCML so that it primarily serves local passengers not served by HS2. That is the entire business case for HS2. There will be as there is now a bit of "market segmentation" where people can choose slower services for a cheaper price, but that isn't really competition.

The competition is to be found flying overhead and on the M1. That's how it needs to work, not TOC petty spatting against TOC.

 

[Meerkat]

No, the DfT will fix the timetable on the WCML so that it primarily serves local passengers not served by HS2. That is the entire business case for HS2. There will be as there is now a bit of "market segmentation" where people can choose slower services for a cheaper price, but that isn't really competition.

The competition is to be found flying overhead and on the M1. That's how it needs to work, not TOC petty spatting against TOC.

The WCML could still compete on the bulk off peak stuff that HS2 need to fill all those seats, the people who will take the stopper all the way for a cheap price (still quicker than National Express?).

 

[Ianno87]

if they got a sniff of interest HS2 would just use the paths wouldn’t they? They would lose less money running marginal trains than having a competitor creaming off business.

Depends what you mean by "HS2". The infrastructure owner or the train operator, as they will almost certainly be different entities.

The infrastructure owner would be incentivised to sell as many trains paths as makes the optimal revenue stream.

The entire point of HS2 is to get rid of the non-stop trains on the WCML. Any competition will be based on luxury, or price.

No different to how Chiltern and LNWR compete (pretty effectively) with the premium Pendolino service.

 

[Meerkat]

Depends what you mean by "HS2". The infrastructure owner or the train operator, as they will almost certainly be different entities.

The infrastructure owner would be incentivised to sell as many trains paths as makes the optimal revenue stream.

Possibly worth another thread but will infrastructure and operator stay separate?
i am normally a fan of competition but not sure what it could achieve on HS2.
AIUI there are already at least as many proposed services as practicable paths - so not like the massively underused Spanish HS lines for example.
A possible gain from OA is innovative routes but with no way to Europe there is no cross-border innovation, and any domestic proposals would either be already covered by HS2 plans or too risky on importing delays.
On price competition I am in the “loads of seats to fill will keep prices down” camp and for the poorest folks the slow options on the classic lines won’t be THAT slow.

 

[Ianno87]

Possibly worth another thread but will infrastructure and operator stay separate?
i am normally a fan of competition but not sure what it could achieve on HS2.

It would require a change to the Railways Act to achieve (which is the EU directive) transposed into UK law.

I do however agree that HS2-on-HS2 competition is highly unlikely, if the basic proposition is already to operate 17-18tph on an all day basis, leaving little if any spare capacity (notwithstanding that any prospective operator requiring rolling stock that meets the required level of performance to fit into such an intensive timetable).

*Might* be a prospect for a Ouigo-style operation to/from Old Oak Common using odd spare path many, many years in the future should the initial HS2 rolling stock become spare as its age advances.

 

[Meerkat]

It would require a change to the Railways Act to achieve (which is the EU directive) transposed into UK law.

That only requires separate accounting doesn’t it? Can still be the same company.
I was thinking that the HS2 franchise could be vertically integrated

Might* be a prospect for a Ouigo-style operation to/from Old Oak Common using odd spare path many, many years in the future should the initial HS2 rolling stock become spare as its age advances.

Once in full operation there is no chance of anything starting or turning at OOC is there?!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The WCML could still compete on the bulk off peak stuff that HS2 need to fill all those seats, the people who will take the stopper all the way for a cheap price (still quicker than National Express?).

Yes, but that competition is incidental, really, not a proper head-to-head thing. It's more market segmentation than competition, and it's quite possible a nationalised operator would do it too - a bit like the long-running Schoenes-Wochenende-Ticket and its replacement the Quer-Durchs-Land-Ticket in Germany, or like Stagecoach continuing to run Magic Bus once the actual competition largely went away on Wilmslow Road.

 

[Bald Rick]

yes very much so.I can’t see open access disappearing anytime soon

Unfortunately, I can.

 

[HSTEd]

Any capacity available on HS2 would be better put into the "proper" railway system where coordination can make best use of it.
We are already down four paths on the original baseline, although i am somewhat hopeful that they may be re-introducable at some point in the future.